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Post by sportsjock on Mar 8, 2019 17:51:04 GMT -5
Any truth to the rumor I heard about Bellevue considering a name change ? Bellevue Zipps or something like that. Nasonti will have a stroke if he reads this I think I read somewhere, where Redmen was one of the most common team nicknames in Ohio. If Bellevue, trashes history and tradition for the PC crowd, shame on them.
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Post by Green Falcon on Mar 8, 2019 22:40:47 GMT -5
Nasonti will have a stroke if he reads this I think I read somewhere, where Redmen was one of the most common team nicknames in Ohio. If Bellevue, trashes history and tradition for the PC crowd, shame on them. No there is no truth
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Post by nocommonsense on Aug 6, 2019 6:55:31 GMT -5
I think I read somewhere, where Redmen was one of the most common team nicknames in Ohio. If Bellevue, trashes history and tradition for the PC crowd, shame on them. No there is no truth You sure there is no truth to this I heard it again last night 2020 may be the last year Bellevue uses the Redmen name ?
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 6, 2019 8:16:20 GMT -5
Those individuals with a lot of time on their hands, wishing to erase all reference to American indian heritage and tradition at local schools in Ohio are on a short list. (# of schools in parenthesis)
Indians (24) Redskins (12) Warriors (18) Redmen (5) Parma, Bucyrus, Bellevue, Fostoria and Rock Hill Seminoles Mohawks Apaches Senecas Chieftans Braves
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 6, 2019 8:19:50 GMT -5
While on the topic of nicknames, thought these Ohio school mascot nicknames were rather unusual, if not humorous.
Electrics Freddies Executives Greenmen Hillclimbers Zeps Smithies Sherman Tanks Mayhem Nubians Lawyers Jeeps Ceramics
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Post by homewrecker on Aug 6, 2019 9:07:34 GMT -5
Those individuals with a lot of time on their hands, wishing to erase all reference to American indian heritage and tradition at local schools in Ohio are on a short list. (# of schools in parenthesis) Indians (24) Redskins (12) Warriors (18) Redmen (5) Parma, Bucyrus, Bellevue, Fostoria and Rock Hill Seminoles Mohawks Apaches Senecas Chieftans Braves I see Braves, Chieftans, Warriors on your list but no Squaws ?? Now we should be really offended !! That's just sexist !!
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 6, 2019 9:26:17 GMT -5
Don't expect Bellevue or few others to make a mascot/nickname change in the name of PC, to satisfy a minute few. The main reason being economic. It doesn't come without a price tag, the total sum that is rather significant when considering replacing uniforms in all sports, band uniforms, templates, carvings, letterheads and other non-specified changes that would be required. Those in administration know full well, absorbing such trivial and unecessary expenses on the tax paying public would be a major negative, the next time they ask for passage of a school bond issue.
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Post by nocommonsense on Aug 6, 2019 9:33:05 GMT -5
Any way where would it stop after sports mascots? Just look at how much of the country has Indian related names. States, counties, cities, rivers, lakes you have to be living near something with an Indian name right now. Huron, Eire, Mohican, even the state name Ohio The crying ones want us to rename all this too ??
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 6, 2019 12:35:29 GMT -5
Those, self appointed PC police, are not truly offended, but it comes down to them satisfying their power fetish. They get a certain joy of manipulating others and when they get what they want, or it appears their endeavor is going nowhere, they move on to the next candidate.
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Post by Observer on Aug 7, 2019 7:30:33 GMT -5
What about Indiana and Indianapolis? See how far that name change goes.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Aug 7, 2019 8:35:03 GMT -5
As someone who's future sister-in-law is Navajo, grew up on a Navajo reservation, and will continue to live with my brother on the reservation post-marriage...I have anecdotal opinions on the whole affair.
With any spectrum of opinion, you have those who REALLY care, those who care, those who see & understand the viewpoint, and those who share the opposite opinion (for varying reasons). I think you guys are giving too much weight to those loudest voices of those who REALLY care.
I'll do my best to interpret what my sister-in-law said about the matter, because it has only ever come up once as a discussion point (and it was not at all in-depth or intense, which may yield to her intensity on the matter).
Cleveland "Indians" is not much of an issue. Technically incorrect? Yes (although Cleveland Native Americans is much harder to fit on a t-shirt). The name itself doesn't exactly cause widespread disparaging, which is a good thing. The name does come from a good place, so to speak. We did not discuss names such as Redmen and Redskins, which can be argued does NOT come from as good of a place as Cleveland Indians does.
Chief Wahoo? We're looking at more of an issue here. My sister-in-law personally can be around those who are wearing the logo, but it isn't exactly a complete endorsement. Navajo culture is dwindling, suffers from poverty, alcoholism, and the language is losing speakers. To some of the older members of the community, logos like Chief Wahoo hurts because it can be seen as a caricature of an entire culture that is not exactly standing on solid ground. I sympathize with this viewpoint. If you were trying to preserve aspects of an entire legacy/culture/history of people, and you see a bunch of pasty-white Ohioans wearing Chief Wahoo...would it invoke positive goodwill?
My stance is, what do I stand to lose by Chief Wahoo going away? How does my viewing experience of the Indians suffer? And for those who are really concerned about the encroachment of the PC Police and what word/logo/phrase they'll go for next...I wholeheartedly believe you'll all be ok. Take a deep breath. This isn't a hard one to let go. As long as the U.S. GDP and your sense of identity/culture isn't tied to the usage of Chief Wahoo, I think I can find bigger things to worry about.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 7, 2019 21:40:17 GMT -5
I’ve had several conversations about this with people who think removing the logo is ludicrous to college students (my kids) who are immersed in a world on the left (although centrist by college standards - Denison and Miami OH).
A few thoughts.
Redmen is the equivalent of the N-word. You may not mean that when YOU say that, but it really matters less what you mean and more what the other person hears. Most white Europeans in the US were not systematically moved/exterminated.
Indian, Seminole, Chief are not derogatory terms. They are generally accepted terms.
You have to admit Chief Wahoo is not a flattering depiction. The Florida Seminoles are a good example of how to handle the situation. They consult with the local tribe and try to stay authentic.
I go back and forth on this. Mascots represent characteristics we admire. We want to emulate those characteristics. It’s a compliment. I think it needs to be done respectfully. I think we have to be sensitive to the past. On the flip side you don’t see Irish people complaining about a drunk Leprechaun with his fists up on the side of Notre Dame’s helmet.
It’s not easy. There is nuance.
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 8, 2019 5:21:19 GMT -5
If you know the history of Chief Wahoo, the vast majority would accept it and move on with their lives. Those that profess to somehow feel it's presence is destroying their lives or the lives of American Indians are trying to create in their minds, their perfect world and feel the need to do it for everyone else as well.
Again, Redmen and and Redskin is derogatory in certain minds and not others. Funny how in this callous world that we have become since the simpler times when the mascots were created, a few are offended. Certainly, not an ounce of ill intent by their creators or the schools students and fan base. The American Tribal Indian is a part of our American heritage and nothing but positive reverence is involved in their representation. The PC people have succeeded in removing the Miami Redskins, but they will always be the Redskins to me and I have close family and friends that graduated from that institution and feel the same way.
I wouldn't use the word 'exterminated' when referencing our native, American Indians. Not a proper term is being applied. Perhaps millions of settlers, farmers, ranchers and pioneers moving west, were exterminated by the indians, if you choose to use the word in that context. Again, not the correct use of terminology.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Aug 8, 2019 9:48:40 GMT -5
If you know the history of Chief Wahoo, the vast majority would accept it and move on with their lives. Those that profess to somehow feel it's presence is destroying their lives or the lives of American Indians are trying to create in their minds, their perfect world and feel the need to do it for everyone else as well. Again, Redmen and and Redskin is derogatory in certain minds and not others. Funny how in this callous world that we have become since the simpler times when the mascots were created, a few are offended. Certainly, not an ounce of ill intent by their creators or the schools students and fan base. The American Tribal Indian is a part of our American heritage and nothing but positive reverence is involved in their representation. The PC people have succeeded in removing the Miami Redskins, but they will always be the Redskins to me and I have close family and friends that graduated from that institution and feel the same way. I wouldn't use the word 'exterminated' when referencing our native, American Indians. Not a proper term is being applied.Perhaps millions of settlers, farmers, ranchers and pioneers moving west, were exterminated by the indians, if you choose to use the word in that context. Again, not the correct use of terminology. To the first bolded point, here is the tribe's stance from which Louis Sockalexis' belonged to: www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2017/05/09/louis-sockalexis-tribe-angry-about-chief-wahoo-logo-obviously-does-not-honor-his-legacy. (They don't appreciate it). To the second bolded point, "nothing but positive reverence" in a caricature drawn up by a white guy? Should we start putting up caricatures of the deceased during calling hours to show our positive reverence? Tell me where my logic is off. To the third bolded point, I would like for you to tell me what the proper term to be used is. Because I don't know how else to understand the cause as to why the indigenous people of North America somehow got completely outnumbered by Euro immigrants AND wound up living on reservations that are absolute fractions of what they used to be allowed to conduct their way of life on.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 8, 2019 12:12:27 GMT -5
Small pox blankets?
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 8, 2019 13:16:14 GMT -5
If you know the history of Chief Wahoo, the vast majority would accept it and move on with their lives. Those that profess to somehow feel it's presence is destroying their lives or the lives of American Indians are trying to create in their minds, their perfect world and feel the need to do it for everyone else as well. Again, Redmen and and Redskin is derogatory in certain minds and not others. Funny how in this callous world that we have become since the simpler times when the mascots were created, a few are offended. Certainly, not an ounce of ill intent by their creators or the schools students and fan base. The American Tribal Indian is a part of our American heritage and nothing but positive reverence is involved in their representation. The PC people have succeeded in removing the Miami Redskins, but they will always be the Redskins to me and I have close family and friends that graduated from that institution and feel the same way. I wouldn't use the word 'exterminated' when referencing our native, American Indians. Not a proper term is being applied.Perhaps millions of settlers, farmers, ranchers and pioneers moving west, were exterminated by the indians, if you choose to use the word in that context. Again, not the correct use of terminology. To the first bolded point, here is the tribe's stance from which Louis Sockalexis' belonged to: www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2017/05/09/louis-sockalexis-tribe-angry-about-chief-wahoo-logo-obviously-does-not-honor-his-legacy. (They don't appreciate it). To the second bolded point, "nothing but positive reverence" in a caricature drawn up by a white guy? Should we start putting up caricatures of the deceased during calling hours to show our positive reverence? Tell me where my logic is off. To the third bolded point, I would like for you to tell me what the proper term to be used is. Because I don't know how else to understand the cause as to why the indigenous people of North America somehow got completely outnumbered by Euro immigrants AND wound up living on reservations that are absolute fractions of what they used to be allowed to conduct their way of life on. I distinctly remember, similar stories concerning this controversy written quite a while back, that arrived that the local Indian tribes, generally had little objections. Obviously, for whatever reason, their attitude has changed and they have every right to do so. Your second paragraph, basically deserves no response. Finally, the third paragraph was not referenced to you. You did not state the American Indian tribes were systematically, exterminated. I would use the words voluntary and involuntary attrition. Many, many tribes (estimated from 1,200 to 2,000) before the onslaught of western settlers, were destroyed by Spanish and Portugese conquerers, other warring tribes and disease. Of course U.S. Cavalry got their share of shameful slaughters in, the most notable of which occurred in the infamous Sand Hill, Colorado slaughter in Nov. 1864, a peaceful Indian camp was attacked by 700 Colorado militia, killing an estimated 150 indians, mostly of which was women & children. Of course, as I mentioned above, the indians were responsible for equally brutal and deadly attacks on communities, wagon trains, homesteaders, farmers, ranchers and whole communites. Long before the white man arrived on the continent, brutal battles between warring tribes was common place. The tribes with the most brutal history were the Commanche, Apache, Lakota, Cherroki, Dakota, Omaha, Blackfoot and Iriqois. Was there an orchestrated effort to exterminate the indian culture in America, suggesting some parrallel to the Nazi extermination of the Jews, certainly not. Much like the Civil War, making generalized statements towards one faction or the other just is not appropriate, due to the immeasurable and insurmountable complexities involved in the history of the conflict. [BTW, the well written comments made yesterday at 9:35am by Shelbyrr11, were excellent!]
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Aug 8, 2019 13:30:00 GMT -5
To the first bolded point, here is the tribe's stance from which Louis Sockalexis' belonged to: www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2017/05/09/louis-sockalexis-tribe-angry-about-chief-wahoo-logo-obviously-does-not-honor-his-legacy. (They don't appreciate it). To the second bolded point, "nothing but positive reverence" in a caricature drawn up by a white guy? Should we start putting up caricatures of the deceased during calling hours to show our positive reverence? Tell me where my logic is off. To the third bolded point, I would like for you to tell me what the proper term to be used is. Because I don't know how else to understand the cause as to why the indigenous people of North America somehow got completely outnumbered by Euro immigrants AND wound up living on reservations that are absolute fractions of what they used to be allowed to conduct their way of life on. I distinctly remember, similar stories concerning this controversy written quite a while back, that arrived that the local Indian tribes, generally had little objections. Obviously, for whatever reason, their attitude has changed and they have every right to do so. Your second paragraph, basically deserves no response.
Finally, the third paragraph was not referenced to you. You did not state the American Indian tribes were systematically, exterminated. I would use the words voluntary and involuntary attrition. Many, many tribes (estimated from 1,200 to 2,000) before the onslaught of western settlers, were destroyed by Spanish and Portugese conquerers, other warring tribes and disease. Of course U.S. Cavalry got their share of shameful slaughters in, the most notable of which occurred in the infamous Sand Hill, Colorado slaughter in Nov. 1864, a peaceful Indian camp was attacked by 700 Colorado militia, killing an estimated 150 indians, mostly of which was women & children. Of course, as I mentioned above, the indians were responsible for equally brutal and deadly attacks on communities, wagon trains, homesteaders, farmers, ranchers and whole communites. Long before the white man arrived on the continent, brutal battles between warring tribes was common place. The tribes with the most brutal history were the Commanche, Apache, Lakota, Cherroki, Dakota, Omaha, Blackfoot and Iriqois. Was there an orchestrated effort to exterminate the indian culture in America, suggesting some parrallel to the Nazi extermination of the Jews, certainly not. Much like the Civil War, making generalized statements towards one faction or the other just is not appropriate, due to the immeasurable and insurmountable complexities involved in the history of the conflict. First bold: If I am so flawed in my thinking, why don't you explain how I am off-base? Dismissing it isn't going to teach me anything. How is Chief Wahoo the best we can choose to represent our depiction of honoring the Native American influence in Cleveland's baseball club? To your final paragraph: Those intricacies are numerous and complex. However, despite the varying responsibilities of each party for the outcome we have reached today, I imagine it comes off in poor taste that the "winners" of the entire conflict uses a caricature under the guise of "hey, it's to honor a Native American who played for us." Florida State doesn't have to use a caricature to reflect their mascot. How come Cleveland has to?
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 8, 2019 16:49:40 GMT -5
I never said your thinking is flawed, just different from mine. Our Chief Wahoo uniforms are by far, the most impressive, especially the blue shirt/pants. I guess I just don't get how a smiling indian is so offensive and the kids have always loved Chief Wahoo, myself included, growing up as a big Indians fan. Those yearning to be offended are pretty thin skinned, in my opinion. Don't see much different from a smiling indian caricature, from a caricature in full war paint and wide, gaping mouth. theblacksheeponline.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/chief-wahoo.jpgThe indian wars have no clear winners or losers, just a lot of dead people.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 8, 2019 16:49:46 GMT -5
Let’s start with some things I think we can agree on.
We’re talking about images.
Images have meaning.
Those meanings can be different to different people. Perspective, right?
Now let me push you a little.
We can all agree what a swastika stands for. It represents an oppressive regime that exterminated a lot of people. What do you think it represented early on to a German people reeling from sanctions placed on them after WWI? National pride? I have German heritage that I am proud of. We can all agree it would be in poor taste for me to fly a flag with a swastika in my front yard. Insensitive at the least, right?
How about the Confederate Flag? Not as offensive, right? For many it represents states’ rights, an agricultural society, Duke of Hazzard. All valid. To some it represents slavery and oppression. It still flies regularly. Insensitive at the least.
I have a bucket hat I got for free 20 years ago at “The Jake” with Chief Wahoo on it. This discussion kills me. I love that hat. When I wear it I have nothing but respect for Native Americans. I also acknowledge that I have NEVER been oppressed. Other than growing up in the foothills of the Appalachians on a farm I have no disadvantage (and my twang is easy to hide). I try to be sensitive to the fact that I started on flat ground with no ceiling, but others are starting in a hole with a firm roof they’d have to break through. I’ve never oppressed anyone, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t been oppressed and as someone who comes from undeniable privilege I HAVE to try to be sensitive.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 8, 2019 16:57:12 GMT -5
Caricature - a picture, description, or imitation of a person in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 8, 2019 17:11:15 GMT -5
Let’s start with some things I think we can agree on. We’re talking about images. Images have meaning. Those meanings can be different to different people. Perspective, right? Now let me push you a little. We can all agree what a swastika stands for. It represents an oppressive regime that exterminated a lot of people. What do you think it represented early on to a German people reeling from sanctions placed on them after WWI? National pride? I have German heritage that I am proud of. We can all agree it would be in poor taste for me to fly a flag with a swastika in my front yard. Insensitive at the least, right? How about the Confederate Flag? Not as offensive, right? For many it represents states’ rights, an agricultural society, Duke of Hazzard. All valid. To some it represents slavery and oppression. It still flies regularly. Insensitive at the least. I have a bucket hat I got for free 20 years ago at “The Jake” with Chief Wahoo on it. This discussion kills me. I love that hat. When I wear it I have nothing but respect for Native Americans. I also acknowledge that I have NEVER been oppressed. Other than growing up in the foothills of the Appalachians on a farm I have no disadvantage (and my twang is easy to hide). I try to be sensitive to the fact that I started on flat ground with no ceiling, but others are starting in a hole with a firm roof they’d have to break through. I’ve never oppressed anyone, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t been oppressed and as someone who comes from undeniable privilege I HAVE to try to be sensitive. All very good points and I'm in agreement with you on everything except, any comparison of Chief Wahoo and a swastika, or Confederate flag. Pretty well summed up except the unfair comparisons.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 8, 2019 17:18:44 GMT -5
Let’s start with some things I think we can agree on. We’re talking about images. Images have meaning. Those meanings can be different to different people. Perspective, right? Now let me push you a little. We can all agree what a swastika stands for. It represents an oppressive regime that exterminated a lot of people. What do you think it represented early on to a German people reeling from sanctions placed on them after WWI? National pride? I have German heritage that I am proud of. We can all agree it would be in poor taste for me to fly a flag with a swastika in my front yard. Insensitive at the least, right? How about the Confederate Flag? Not as offensive, right? For many it represents states’ rights, an agricultural society, Duke of Hazzard. All valid. To some it represents slavery and oppression. It still flies regularly. Insensitive at the least. I have a bucket hat I got for free 20 years ago at “The Jake” with Chief Wahoo on it. This discussion kills me. I love that hat. When I wear it I have nothing but respect for Native Americans. I also acknowledge that I have NEVER been oppressed. Other than growing up in the foothills of the Appalachians on a farm I have no disadvantage (and my twang is easy to hide). I try to be sensitive to the fact that I started on flat ground with no ceiling, but others are starting in a hole with a firm roof they’d have to break through. I’ve never oppressed anyone, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t been oppressed and as someone who comes from undeniable privilege I HAVE to try to be sensitive. All very good points and I'm in agreement with you on everything except, any comparison of Chief Wahoo and a swastika, or Confederate flag. Pretty well summed up except the unfair comparisons. You can acknowledge that swastikas and the Confederate flag can mean different things to different people, but the Chief Wahoo caricature cannot? I’ll concede they are different, but just different points on the same spectrum from more offensive to less. The first two are easier for you because you have no buy in. They mean nothing to you. The last one means something to YOU. What if you were from Georgia or Germany?
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 8, 2019 20:30:29 GMT -5
Again, I reject any correlation with a swastika or Confederate flag. Although, the sight of a Confederate flag doesn't offend me the least and view it in a historical sense. Southerners can display it, fly it all they want, as far as I'm concerned, as long as it's always below the American flag. I fully understand some southerners see it as a symbol of southern pride and I get that. As a German American, the swastika symbolizes the Nazi party and has no place on this planet.
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Post by homewrecker on Aug 12, 2019 10:52:29 GMT -5
Let’s start with some things I think we can agree on. We’re talking about images. Images have meaning. Those meanings can be different to different people. Perspective, right? Now let me push you a little. We can all agree what a swastika stands for. It represents an oppressive regime that exterminated a lot of people. What do you think it represented early on to a German people reeling from sanctions placed on them after WWI? National pride? I have German heritage that I am proud of. We can all agree it would be in poor taste for me to fly a flag with a swastika in my front yard. Insensitive at the least, right? How about the Confederate Flag? Not as offensive, right? For many it represents states’ rights, an agricultural society, Duke of Hazzard. All valid. To some it represents slavery and oppression. It still flies regularly. Insensitive at the least. I have a bucket hat I got for free 20 years ago at “The Jake” with Chief Wahoo on it. This discussion kills me. I love that hat. When I wear it I have nothing but respect for Native Americans. I also acknowledge that I have NEVER been oppressed. Other than growing up in the foothills of the Appalachians on a farm I have no disadvantage (and my twang is easy to hide). I try to be sensitive to the fact that I started on flat ground with no ceiling, but others are starting in a hole with a firm roof they’d have to break through. I’ve never oppressed anyone, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t been oppressed and as someone who comes from undeniable privilege I HAVE to try to be sensitive. You think because you are born white it automatically comes with FREE privilege or something ?? Well I'm white and it didn’t for me, all I ever saw over my head was a ceiling that I had to work my bum bum off every day to get somewhere. I didn’t sit on my bum bum and collect a welfare check, popping another kid out every time I want that check to get bigger. Don’t tell me I’m privileged because I am white. This country is getting to the point the White man is the most oppressed people in it. I know for a fact when a lot of my generation graduated and went into the work force many willing to work got turned away from employers. They would say I’m sorry we cant hire you because of affirmative action, we can only hire minorities we have to meet our quota. We have raised a generation of people blaming the white man for all the worlds problems it’s a bunch of BS, how many parts of this world would still be slinging sticks and stones at each other had it not been for the euro whites mainly from the German/France/Switzerland/Sweden part of the world creating and developing inventions. The only way my kids got any help to pay for college was they work their butts off and studied hard and trained hard. They weren’t offered it because of their color, like some that get a free ride. Its ok for us to have the UNCF but if we had a EWACF you would be labeled a racist and run out of the country. UNCF - United Negro College Fund / EWACF - Euro White American College Fund I am not a racist just tiered of the anti white man stance that so many have taken. All your problems didn’t come from me I have no more privilege than anyone else and tired of hearing I do. I had ancestors that died in the civil war fighting to free people. Yet I am not yelling for reparations. Again I am not racist (just not anti white) we have been blessed to have people in this country like Halle Berry, Walter Payton, Jennifer Lopez, Kevin Hart and countless many more that aren't white. You want to end racism stop crying I owe you something and get off you’re bum bum and better yourself.
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Post by homewrecker on Aug 12, 2019 12:52:20 GMT -5
Just an FYI (bum bum) was not my word, it was the editors. My word was a bit more explicit.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 12, 2019 18:03:05 GMT -5
Let’s start with some things I think we can agree on. We’re talking about images. Images have meaning. Those meanings can be different to different people. Perspective, right? Now let me push you a little. We can all agree what a swastika stands for. It represents an oppressive regime that exterminated a lot of people. What do you think it represented early on to a German people reeling from sanctions placed on them after WWI? National pride? I have German heritage that I am proud of. We can all agree it would be in poor taste for me to fly a flag with a swastika in my front yard. Insensitive at the least, right? How about the Confederate Flag? Not as offensive, right? For many it represents states’ rights, an agricultural society, Duke of Hazzard. All valid. To some it represents slavery and oppression. It still flies regularly. Insensitive at the least. I have a bucket hat I got for free 20 years ago at “The Jake” with Chief Wahoo on it. This discussion kills me. I love that hat. When I wear it I have nothing but respect for Native Americans. I also acknowledge that I have NEVER been oppressed. Other than growing up in the foothills of the Appalachians on a farm I have no disadvantage (and my twang is easy to hide). I try to be sensitive to the fact that I started on flat ground with no ceiling, but others are starting in a hole with a firm roof they’d have to break through. I’ve never oppressed anyone, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t been oppressed and as someone who comes from undeniable privilege I HAVE to try to be sensitive. You think because you are born white it automatically comes with FREE privilege or something ?? Well I'm white and it didn’t for me, all I ever saw over my head was a ceiling that I had to work my bum bum off every day to get somewhere. I didn’t sit on my bum bum and collect a welfare check, popping another kid out every time I want that check to get bigger. Don’t tell me I’m privileged because I am white. This country is getting to the point the White man is the most oppressed people in it. I know for a fact when a lot of my generation graduated and went into the work force many willing to work got turned away from employeers. They would say I’m sorry we cant hire you because of affirmative action, we can only hire minorities we have to meet our quota. We have raised a generation of people blaming the white man for all the worlds problems it’s a bunch of BS, how many parts of this world would still be slinging sticks and stones at each other had it not been for the euro whites mainly from the German/France/Switzerland/Sweden part of the world creating and developing inventions. The only way my kids got any help to pay for college was they work their butts off and studied hard and trained hard. They weren’t offered it because of their color, like some that get a free ride. Its ok for us to have the UNCF but if we had a EWACF you would be labeled a racist and run out of the country. UNCF - United Negro College Fund / EWACF - Euro White American College Fund I am not a racist just tiered of the anti white man stance that so many have taken. All your problems didn’t come from me I have no more privilege than anyone else and tired of hearing I do. I had ancestors that died in the civil war fighting to free people. Yet I am not yelling for reparations. Again I am not racist (just not anti white) we have been blessed to have people in this country like Halle Berry, Walter Payton, Jennifer Lopez, Kevin Hart and countless many more that aren't white. You want to end racism stop crying I owe you something and get off you’re bum bum and better yourself. [ I think I’m unlikely to influence you, but let me give you something to think about. What North Central Ohio school did you graduate from? What was the student to teacher ratio? Did you fear for your life from gangs and drug dealers on your way to school? Was your only meal a school lunch? Were either of your parents high regularly? Did you have pencils, paper? I could go on, but imagine the difference between answering these on opposite sides. That’s the privilege I’m referring to. You might argue there is opportunity to elevate oneself from these situations. Agreed, but it isn’t easy. We expect a kid who has been given zero direction to turn 18 and magically become a productive adult. I’m going to ask two questions I’d seriously like an answer to. How many generations would you give a race to overcome the damage done by fathers being sold away from their families? How many generations would you give a race to overcome separate but equal (keep in mind there are people alive TODAY educated in that system)? I’m referring to African Americans now, but you can ask similar questions about Native American which is more relevant to this thread. You don’t owe anyone reparations. You may not be racist. I do believe our institutions (government) have some debt to certain minorities. I don’t believe it should be paid individuals. It should be invested into the education of minorities. It should go toward improving the schools in predominantly minority districts to give children who are at risk of repeating the mistakes of their parents and perpetuating a cycle that our predecessors are, in part, responsible for.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 12, 2019 18:05:24 GMT -5
Let’s start with some things I think we can agree on. We’re talking about images. Images have meaning. Those meanings can be different to different people. Perspective, right? Now let me push you a little. We can all agree what a swastika stands for. It represents an oppressive regime that exterminated a lot of people. What do you think it represented early on to a German people reeling from sanctions placed on them after WWI? National pride? I have German heritage that I am proud of. We can all agree it would be in poor taste for me to fly a flag with a swastika in my front yard. Insensitive at the least, right? How about the Confederate Flag? Not as offensive, right? For many it represents states’ rights, an agricultural society, Duke of Hazzard. All valid. To some it represents slavery and oppression. It still flies regularly. Insensitive at the least. I have a bucket hat I got for free 20 years ago at “The Jake” with Chief Wahoo on it. This discussion kills me. I love that hat. When I wear it I have nothing but respect for Native Americans. I also acknowledge that I have NEVER been oppressed. Other than growing up in the foothills of the Appalachians on a farm I have no disadvantage (and my twang is easy to hide). I try to be sensitive to the fact that I started on flat ground with no ceiling, but others are starting in a hole with a firm roof they’d have to break through. I’ve never oppressed anyone, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t been oppressed and as someone who comes from undeniable privilege I HAVE to try to be sensitive. You think because you are born white it automatically comes with FREE privilege or something ?? Well I'm white and it didn’t for me, all I ever saw over my head was a ceiling that I had to work my bum bum off every day to get somewhere. I didn’t sit on my bum bum and collect a welfare check, popping another kid out every time I want that check to get bigger. Don’t tell me I’m privileged because I am white. This country is getting to the point the White man is the most oppressed people in it. I know for a fact when a lot of my generation graduated and went into the work force many willing to work got turned away from employeers. They would say I’m sorry we cant hire you because of affirmative action, we can only hire minorities we have to meet our quota. We have raised a generation of people blaming the white man for all the worlds problems it’s a bunch of BS, how many parts of this world would still be slinging sticks and stones at each other had it not been for the euro whites mainly from the German/France/Switzerland/Sweden part of the world creating and developing inventions. The only way my kids got any help to pay for college was they work their butts off and studied hard and trained hard. They weren’t offered it because of their color, like some that get a free ride. Its ok for us to have the UNCF but if we had a EWACF you would be labeled a racist and run out of the country. UNCF - United Negro College Fund / EWACF - Euro White American College Fund I am not a racist just tiered of the anti white man stance that so many have taken. All your problems didn’t come from me I have no more privilege than anyone else and tired of hearing I do. I had ancestors that died in the civil war fighting to free people. Yet I am not yelling for reparations. Again I am not racist (just not anti white) we have been blessed to have people in this country like Halle Berry, Walter Payton, Jennifer Lopez, Kevin Hart and countless many more that aren't white. You want to end racism stop crying I owe you something and get off you’re bum bum and better yourself. [ I think I’m unlikely to influence you, but let me give you something to think about. What North Central Ohio school did you graduate from? What was the student to teacher ratio? Did you fear for your life from gangs and drug dealers on your way to school? Was your only meal a school lunch? Were either of your parents high regularly? Did you have pencils, paper? I could go on, but imagine the difference between answering these on opposite sides. That’s the privilege I’m referring to. You might argue there is opportunity to elevate oneself from these situations. Agreed, but it isn’t easy. We expect a kid who has been given zero direction to turn 18 and magically become a productive adult. I’m going to ask two questions I’d seriously like an answer to. How many generations would you give a race to overcome the damage done by fathers being sold away from their families? How many generations would you give a race to overcome separate but equal (keep in mind there are people alive TODAY educated in that system)? I’m referring to African Americans now, but you can ask similar questions about Native American which is more relevant to this thread. You don’t owe anyone reparations. You may not be racist. I do believe our institutions (government) have some debt to certain minorities. I don’t believe it should be paid to individuals. It should be invested into the education of minorities. It should go toward improving the schools in predominantly minority districts to give children who are at risk of repeating the mistakes of their parents and perpetuating a cycle that our predecessors are, in part, responsible for.
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