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Post by Willard Fillmore on Feb 10, 2017 3:00:07 GMT -5
I can't believe Shelby wanted to be by far the smallest school in a league that included 3 DI schools. They would go from being the furthest south school in the NEW SBC to the furthest North in the OCC. There are no DI schools in the SBC and Shelby is the 3rd largest in the current Bay division. In the proposed 24 school 3 division SBC Shelby is the largest school in their division. It was all about travel...avg drive time was way less than in SBC. Besides that, we compete with most OCC schools in most of the bigger sports most years even though OCC schools are larger. At one time Clear Fork thought they could "compete" in the OCC too. Now they WANT to travel longer distances to be in the MOAC instead of the OCC. To play "most" OCC schools would mean at least 4. i could be wrong, but I don't think Shelby plays 4 OCC schools in any sport.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 8:28:52 GMT -5
I can't believe Shelby wanted to be by far the smallest school in a league that included 3 DI schools. They would go from being the furthest south school in the NEW SBC to the furthest North in the OCC. There are no DI schools in the SBC and Shelby is the 3rd largest in the current Bay division. In the proposed 24 school 3 division SBC Shelby is the largest school in their division. It was all about travel...avg drive time was way less than in SBC. Besides that, we compete with most OCC schools in most of the bigger sports most years even though OCC schools are larger.Exactly! Shelby has competed successfully with a number of schools in the OCC who in return compete annually for the OCC title. There is a difference between St. X. and Mansfield.
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Post by BellevueBuckeye on Feb 10, 2017 8:36:26 GMT -5
To play "most" OCC schools would mean at least 4. I could be wrong, but I don't think Shelby plays 4 OCC schools in any sport. Their girls basketball team played 6 OCC schools this year.
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Post by SportsNut on Feb 10, 2017 8:56:56 GMT -5
It was all about travel...avg drive time was way less than in SBC. Besides that, we compete with most OCC schools in most of the bigger sports most years even though OCC schools are larger. At one time Clear Fork thought they could "compete" in the OCC too. Now they WANT to travel longer distances to be in the MOAC instead of the OCC. To play "most" OCC schools would mean at least 4. i could be wrong, but I don't think Shelby plays 4 OCC schools in any sport. I am not trying to argue with you, just stating what I heard. They may not have played 4 in football/basketball but they typically schedule 4 in baseball. Obviously I am making my suggestions based on how we have done against the OCC schools we have played and then those schools results vs the remaining OCC schools. For example in basketball this season, we lost to Madison in the first game of the year and lost very close games to Ashland and Lexington...and that is with some of our best athletes not playing. Based on those results, I would assume we would be ok against Senior, WH, Mt Vernon. In baseball we have held our own against Senior, Madison, Mt Vernon, Lex and Ashland when we have had a chance to play them and the weather has cooperated. It wouldn't matter if we would have went to the OCC, Shelby is a good fit in the MOAC and that is where it wants to be should the opportunity arise down the road...Back on topic, I am shocked Shelby's number dropped around 30 or so kids...interested to see if that number goes up when the "updated" numbers come out
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Post by fanofthegame on Feb 10, 2017 9:09:38 GMT -5
Shelby would struggle in the OCC. It's a numbers issue more now than ever. With fewer kids playing and more specializing the numbers difference is magnified. Someone already mentioned the difference in the bball team because two athletes chose not to play. Two kids when you draw from 300 is way different than when you draw from 500-600.
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Post by SportsNut on Feb 10, 2017 9:18:38 GMT -5
Shelby would struggle in the OCC. It's a numbers issue more now than ever. With fewer kids playing and more specializing the numbers difference is magnified. Someone already mentioned the difference in the bball team because two athletes chose not to play. Two kids when you draw from 300 is way different than when you draw from 500-600. Maybe some years, but not year in and year out...My point on the missing two athletes was that we STILL almost beat Lex and Ashland (2 of the top 3 teams in OCC) without those two...we didn't get blown out because 2 would be starters and 2 phenomenal athletes didn't play. Back on topic, I am shocked Shelby's number dropped around 30 or so kids...interested to see if that number goes up when the "updated" numbers come out. I know Shelby has some really small classes mixed in with some larger than normal classes coming up so maybe this years Freshman classes is one of those smaller ones??
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 9:41:58 GMT -5
Shelby would struggle in the OCC. It's a numbers issue more now than ever. With fewer kids playing and more specializing the numbers difference is magnified. Someone already mentioned the difference in the bball team because two athletes chose not to play. Two kids when you draw from 300 is way different than when you draw from 500-600. Who in your post would be drawing from 500-600 kids? 372 Marion Harding (Marion) 369 Madison Comprehensive (Mansfield) 351 Ashland (Ashland) 332 Mansfield Senior (Mansfield) 314 Sandusky (Sandusky) 288 Norwalk (Norwalk) 276 Lexington (Lexington) 257 West Holmes (Millersburg) 243 Perkins (Sandusky) 232 Port Clinton (Port Clinton) 230 River Valley (Caledonia) 225 Bellevue (Bellevue) 220 Ontario (Ontario) 196 Shelby
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 9:45:42 GMT -5
I could see all of these numbers changing before they become official. Typically the first collection can be way off.
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Post by fanofthegame on Feb 10, 2017 10:16:18 GMT -5
Shelby would struggle in the OCC. It's a numbers issue more now than ever. With fewer kids playing and more specializing the numbers difference is magnified. Someone already mentioned the difference in the bball team because two athletes chose not to play. Two kids when you draw from 300 is way different than when you draw from 500-600. Who in your post would be drawing from 500-600 kids? 372 Marion Harding (Marion) 369 Madison Comprehensive (Mansfield) 351 Ashland (Ashland) 332 Mansfield Senior (Mansfield) 314 Sandusky (Sandusky) 288 Norwalk (Norwalk) 276 Lexington (Lexington) 257 West Holmes (Millersburg) 243 Perkins (Sandusky) 232 Port Clinton (Port Clinton) 230 River Valley (Caledonia) 225 Bellevue (Bellevue) 220 Ontario (Ontario)Â 196 ShelbyI overstated Shelby's and the big OCC's enrollments. Point is 2/200 is a bigger percentage than 2/350. Shelby would consistently be mid OCC, IMO. They'd rarely get blown out by anyone, but they'd rarely go undefeated in conference football. They'd have a loss or two every year. Which means they'd rarely be conference champs.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 10:21:50 GMT -5
Who in your post would be drawing from 500-600 kids? I overstated Shelby's and the big OCC's enrollments. Point is 2/200 is a bigger percentage than 2/350. Shelby would consistently be mid OCC, IMO. They'd rarely get blown out by anyone, but they'd rarely go undefeated in conference football. They'd have a loss or two every year. Which means they'd rarely be conference champs. Under the current teams in the NOL has Shelby ever gone undefeated in football? When was the last time Shelby went undefeated in football?
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Post by Rambo McClain on Feb 10, 2017 10:55:06 GMT -5
My last idea got shot down royally. How about this setup. There is a league with 6 teams just to the West of the SBC and a fair number of the SBC teams already play these teams.
Lake - 8 teams Toledo Bowsher Toledo Rogers Toledo Scott Toledo Start Toledo Waite Toledo Woodward 330 Tiffin Columbian 314 Sandusky
Bay 297 Clyde 288 Norwalk 243 Perkins 232 Port Clinton 225 Bellevue 201 Vermilion 196 Shelby 186 Huron
River 172 Edison 156 Oak Harbor 152 Willard 125 Lakota 100 Margaretta 62 SMCC 60 Tiffin Calvert 57 Fremont St Joe
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 11:10:44 GMT -5
^^^ Why not just kick Tiffin and Sandusky out of the SBC?
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Feb 10, 2017 11:36:31 GMT -5
I spurred a big discussion about Shelby and I just want to clarify to those who commented on my comment: I interpreted Shelby's "looking fondly at the MOAC" as something that would have happened a few years into being in their SBC contract, not something to happen in the next year, mainly because I doubt the SBC would have added Keystone, Firelands, etc. within the next year. Hopefully that clears up any misunderstanding.
As far as Rambo's SBC V.3...I view the TLC as viable for basketball but it is simply too much of a liability in football. I don't recall what gates the TLC schools brought when they have played NOL/SBC schools in the past few years in football, but they are simply too weak in non-conference play to justify making a conference shift towards them. Sandusky and Tiffin would need to go 9-1 minimum to make the playoffs in most years as those TLC schools would be going 1-2 or 0-3 in non-conference play as they do now.
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Post by SportsNut on Feb 10, 2017 11:40:33 GMT -5
Who in your post would be drawing from 500-600 kids? 372 Marion Harding (Marion) 369 Madison Comprehensive (Mansfield) 351 Ashland (Ashland) 332 Mansfield Senior (Mansfield) 314 Sandusky (Sandusky) 288 Norwalk (Norwalk) 276 Lexington (Lexington) 257 West Holmes (Millersburg) 243 Perkins (Sandusky) 232 Port Clinton (Port Clinton) 230 River Valley (Caledonia) 225 Bellevue (Bellevue) 220 Ontario (Ontario) 196 ShelbyI overstated Shelby's and the big OCC's enrollments. Point is 2/200 is a bigger percentage than 2/350. Shelby would consistently be mid OCC, IMO. They'd rarely get blown out by anyone, but they'd rarely go undefeated in conference football. They'd have a loss or two every year. Which means they'd rarely be conference champs. Please explain the difference between Shelby being mid NOL vs mid OCC?? Shelby hasn't won any conference championships in football/basketball/baseball for more than a few years except baseball this past season. Shelby has basically been mid-NOL to upper in a few instances...rarely in the basement. When you throw in track and CC we have been near the top and I think we would still be near the top in the OCC in those sports. What does going undefeated have to do with anything? Did the OCC conference champ in football this past season go undefeated in conference play? NO. Did the NOL champ in baseball this past season go undefeated in conference play? NO.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Feb 10, 2017 11:41:53 GMT -5
Also, I think we should take this into consideration before we get too deep in these discussions:
"The proposed new enrollment numbers were posted here on Monday, February 6, 2017. After discovering an error in the data received from the Ohio Department of Education, the content was removed on Thursday, February 9. The updated enrollment numbers will be reposted here as soon as possible."
That is from the OHSAA.
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Post by BellevueBuckeye on Feb 10, 2017 11:50:32 GMT -5
Lake - 8 teams Toledo Bowsher Toledo Rogers Toledo Scott Toledo Start Toledo Waite Toledo Woodward 330 Tiffin Columbian 314 Sandusky Ha, this lineup is like a B-movie version of the TRAC
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Post by fanofthegame on Feb 10, 2017 12:05:44 GMT -5
Shelby hasn't won a lot of conference anything in the NOL, but the discussion isn't about JOINING the NOL. Shelby has been there. The discussion has been where might Shelby go if options arose. All things being equal I would think admin would go to a league where titles were likely over one where mid pack was the norm. MOAC versus OCC.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 13:08:17 GMT -5
Shelby hasn't won a lot of conference anything in the NOL, but the discussion isn't about JOINING the NOL. Shelby has been there. The discussion has been where might Shelby go if options arose. All things being equal I would think admin would go to a league where titles were likely over one where mid pack was the norm. MOAC versus OCC. If you ae looking for guaranteed wins, neither the MOAC or the OCC would be the place to go. If you want a competitive conference and less travel........
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Post by SportsNut on Feb 10, 2017 13:28:03 GMT -5
Shelby hasn't won a lot of conference anything in the NOL, but the discussion isn't about JOINING the NOL. Shelby has been there. The discussion has been where might Shelby go if options arose. All things being equal I would think admin would go to a league where titles were likely over one where mid pack was the norm. MOAC versus OCC. If you ae looking for guaranteed wins, neither the MOAC or the OCC would be the place to go. If you want a competitive conference and less travel........ It is apparent Fan thinks Shelby should find and take the "easiest" route in hopes of more conference titles...easy doesn't make you a better athlete/team, it just makes you think you are better than you really are...
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Post by SportsNut on Feb 10, 2017 13:42:34 GMT -5
The corrected OHSAA numbers are posted...instead of initially dropping 32 students (196), Shelby is now listed at 248 which is 20 more than 2015, 2016 count of 228.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Feb 10, 2017 14:04:40 GMT -5
If we are looking at a MOAC vs. OCC discussion in terms of enrollment, Shelby may be in the middle of both conferences based on enrollment...but you gotta look at the standard deviation of the other members relative to Shelby. It paints a different competitive picture.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 14:16:03 GMT -5
If we are looking at a MOAC vs. OCC discussion in terms of enrollment, Shelby may be in the middle of both conferences based on enrollment...but you gotta look at the standard deviation of the other members relative to Shelby. It paints a different competitive picture. WTH???
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Feb 10, 2017 14:19:28 GMT -5
Lake: 332 Tiffin 328 Norwalk 317 Sandusky 314 Clyde 267 Perkins 261 Bellevue
Bay: 248 Shelby 241 Port Clinton 229 Vermilion 207 Huron 197 Edison 181 Oak Harbor
River: 169 Willard 148 Lakota 119 Margaretta 61 Calvert 61 SMCC 54 Fremont St. Joe's
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Feb 10, 2017 14:23:16 GMT -5
If we are looking at a MOAC vs. OCC discussion in terms of enrollment, Shelby may be in the middle of both conferences based on enrollment...but you gotta look at the standard deviation of the other members relative to Shelby. It paints a different competitive picture. WTH??? Standard deviations measure how spread out items in a group are from each other. For example, a league with 4 members with enrollments of 250, 200, 150, and 100 will have a lower standard deviation than a league with 4 members with enrollments of 500, 400, 300, 200. The point I was making is that, while Shelby could have had an opportunity to be in the middle of the pack in the OCC and MOAC, the members of the MOAC are clustered together more tightly than the OCC, where the ceiling is higher in terms of enrollment. Edit: I didn't read over everyone's posts, so I am not sure where I am getting it in my head that Shelby would be in the middle of the pack in the OCC...but whatever the statistics lesson is still valuable.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 14:31:39 GMT -5
I understand the math, but I question it being used in selecting a league.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Feb 10, 2017 15:10:21 GMT -5
Well, If I am going to be in the middle of the pack, I would rather pick a league where the smallest and biggest teams are closer together in terms of enrollment. It would make the smallest team less stuffy that they can find a better fit and it would make the biggest team more satisfied that they are playing teams that can prepare them for what could be a higher division in tournament play. Otherwise, you WILL have a greater chance for league instability.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 15:25:39 GMT -5
Stability and success for yourself should be the goal, not others. If you have value regardless of enrollment you will have options even if your league is not stable.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Feb 10, 2017 15:44:16 GMT -5
Shelby would struggle in the OCC. It's a numbers issue more now than ever. With fewer kids playing and more specializing the numbers difference is magnified. Someone already mentioned the difference in the bball team because two athletes chose not to play. Two kids when you draw from 300 is way different than when you draw from 500-600. Who in your post would be drawing from 500-600 kids? 372 Marion Harding (Marion) 369 Madison Comprehensive (Mansfield) 351 Ashland (Ashland) 332 Mansfield Senior (Mansfield) 314 Sandusky (Sandusky) 288 Norwalk (Norwalk) 276 Lexington (Lexington) 257 West Holmes (Millersburg) 243 Perkins (Sandusky) 232 Port Clinton (Port Clinton) 230 River Valley (Caledonia) 225 Bellevue (Bellevue) 220 Ontario (Ontario) 196 ShelbyVery strange that the 2 largest OCC schools were left off this list, DIs Wooster and Mt.Vernon What is Ashland's number in the updated count?
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Feb 10, 2017 16:14:22 GMT -5
Ashland is at 408 WF, but everyone else on that list you quoted has changed so it isn't quite useful to compare the two.
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Post by kingmartinez on Feb 10, 2017 16:17:49 GMT -5
Many changes still coming. Some schools are still being reported too high. Shelby for sure. Possibly Clyde. These numbers are much closer than the first run though.
Perkins has dropped quite a bit. After this go around with their district, will be interesting to see the next count (2019). They need to stop the bleeding.
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