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Post by CEOSouth on Oct 11, 2019 13:29:02 GMT -5
It would seem like if they were trying to get a non-biased ruling, they seemed to have failed.
IMO, which sucks for the players at OH, but anything that is accomplished by OH in football or basketball with these players on the field/court under this injunction, comes with a Huge, Glaring Asterisk.
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Post by fanofthegame on Oct 11, 2019 15:15:04 GMT -5
If the OHSAA appeals and wins do second half of the season and playoff wins become forfeits?
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Post by kingmartinez on Oct 11, 2019 15:41:25 GMT -5
Anyone care to share the link to the appeal?
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Post by CEOSouth on Oct 11, 2019 18:12:17 GMT -5
Anyone care to share the link to the appeal? See if this works for you commonpleas.co.ottawa.oh.us/BenchmarkWebProd/Image.aspx/PDFViewer2?cid=3164112&digest=jQDYJ5KS19ej80%2FTwmWKNA
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 11, 2019 20:11:46 GMT -5
Is Judge Barber a visiting judge? Ottawa County Judge who resides in oak harbor. ^^^ That's why I guffawed when the father said he wanted to present his case to an impartial court. I wonder if the judge is a season ticket holder
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Post by sharonpeters on Oct 11, 2019 20:39:52 GMT -5
I'm curious how this conversation would go if Oak harbor wasn't winning any games ?
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Post by sportsvideo on Oct 11, 2019 21:20:11 GMT -5
I'm curious how this conversation would go if Oak harbor wasn't winning any games ? does it make it right either way? why even have rules if we're not going to follow them? rather agree or disagree I just don't understand how a judge can go against the rules of the organization that is set in place by member schools?
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Post by sharonpeters on Oct 11, 2019 23:34:57 GMT -5
SV you've hated Oak harbor since the beginning of time for some odd reason. It's high school ball. Every single one of you naysayers would do the same for your kids
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Post by Whittaker on Oct 12, 2019 0:02:42 GMT -5
I'm curious how this conversation would go if Oak harbor wasn't winning any games ? does it make it right either way? why even have rules if we're not going to follow them? rather agree or disagree I just don't understand how a judge can go against the rules of the organization that is set in place by member schools? The OHSAA did not and can not keep a kid off of a public school sports team. They don't have that authority. The school makes that decision. That is not a decision the school can delegate to an outside group. And that decision is subject to review by higher authorities which may include school boards, the machinery of the state(which includes state judges) and even the federal govt under the right circumstances. Public schools cannot escape their responsibility to treat students in a fair and equitable manner under the law by delegating that authority to another organization. The OHSAA is a voluntary non-profit organization. It is not a government entity. It has no authority over students or parents. The State > A School District > OHSAA Dispense with the idea that the OHSAA has any authority whatsoever to define how public school officials, parents or students must behave.
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Post by Whittaker on Oct 12, 2019 8:30:10 GMT -5
Here is how the conversation should go:
Parent: Mr. Principal, my son tells me you wont let him play football. Principal: Mr. Smith, the OHSAA says your family must jump through these additional hoops to be eligible. Parent: I give no damns about the OHSAA. You run this school. Do your job. Do you have a good reason why my son can't play football? Principal: No, but I won't let him play until OHSAA says its okay. Parent: See you in court.
LOL at having to prove to some private organization that you moved for the reasons they deem acceptable. And people are wondering why interest in school sports is low.
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Post by CEOSouth on Oct 12, 2019 11:30:44 GMT -5
You’re probably not going to like the first page of OHSAAs Handbook.
“OHSAA believes that.... Participation in interscholastic athletics programs is a privilege, not a right.
OHSAA is committed to... Establishing and regulating regular season and tournament standards in order for competition to be fair and equitable.“
Personally, I have a hard time seeing how OHSAA has much of anything to do with interest being low these days.
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Post by kingmartinez on Oct 12, 2019 16:53:16 GMT -5
Whittaker - Don't confuse FAPE having anything to do with athletics or extra-curriculars. As CEO points out, participation is a privilege and regulated.
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Post by Whittaker on Oct 12, 2019 17:38:26 GMT -5
Extra-curriculars at public schools are not a right. They are also not really a privilege. A school principal, as a public employee, has a duty to treat students in a fair and equitable manner. This includes the use of all public resources and facilities. When is is alleged that he hasn't done so, that decision may be reviewed by authorities above the principal. This could take the form of a court case where the parties are the parents/student vs the school district. The whole point of my rant was to point out that the OHSAA doesn't really have legal significance in such a court case. They have no legal responsibility nor legal authority. The school does. It must have a rational reason for denying sports participation to a student. That isn't how we define privilege. It is something more than privilege but less than a right. Call it a right to "reasonable and equitable government action". I think the best way to demonstrate this is to use a hypothetical. Suppose the OHSAA decided that students whose parents made less than $30,000 per year should not play a Spring sport. And suppose the school principals enforced this rule to avoid sanctions from OHSAA. Well...I think its pretty obvious that the principal cannot just tell the judge "Hey, sports are a privilege and those are the rules". The judge would be correct to order the principal to disregard the rule and let the students play.
I am not saying the Oak Harbor principal was right or wrong in the instant case. I'm saying the court defense of 'OHSAA Made Us Do It' does not fly.
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Post by galion on Oct 12, 2019 18:08:40 GMT -5
Tell that to their teammates when the ohsaa declares oak Harbor ineligible for post season play for playing athletes who they ruled ineligible. No court can overrule that.
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Post by sportsvideo on Oct 12, 2019 18:21:16 GMT -5
does it make it right either way? why even have rules if we're not going to follow them? rather agree or disagree I just don't understand how a judge can go against the rules of the organization that is set in place by member schools? The OHSAA did not and can not keep a kid off of a public school sports team. They don't have that authority. The school makes that decision. That is not a decision the school can delegate to an outside group. And that decision is subject to review by higher authorities which may include school boards, the machinery of the state(which includes state judges) and even the federal govt under the right circumstances. Public schools cannot escape their responsibility to treat students in a fair and equitable manner under the law by delegating that authority to another organization. The OHSAA is a voluntary non-profit organization. It is not a government entity. It has no authority over students or parents. The State > A School District > OHSAA Dispense with the idea that the OHSAA has any authority whatsoever to define how public school officials, parents or students must behave. IF you wish to be a member of the OHSAA, then you abide by their rules, not the ones you want to make up after the fact.. You can go to any school you choose,, but if that schools athletic teams are MEMBERS of the OHSAA, then you follow their rules.. But i do get it its 2019, people believe there entitled to whatever they want..
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Post by sportsvideo on Oct 12, 2019 18:30:08 GMT -5
SV you've hated Oak harbor since the beginning of time for some odd reason. It's high school ball. Every single one of you naysayers would do the same for your kids No I wouldnt.. I'd teach my kid to deal with a little adversity because they're going to face it sometime down the road in life.. And I don't hate Oak Harbor.. This isn't even about oak harbor, its about following the by laws of an organization that the school is a member of..
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Post by kingmartinez on Oct 12, 2019 18:59:53 GMT -5
1. Oak Harbor's administration has fought for their eligibility during the OHSAA appeal. 2. The OHSAA doesn't "decide" the bylaws. The member schools vote them into existence.
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Post by kingmartinez on Oct 12, 2019 19:01:14 GMT -5
Tell that to their teammates when the ohsaa declares oak Harbor ineligible for post season play for playing athletes who they ruled ineligible. No court can overrule that. I don't think that will happen if they end up being declared ineligible because there was (is) a temporary injunction.
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Post by galion on Oct 13, 2019 4:04:36 GMT -5
Here is how the conversation should go: Parent: Mr. Principal, my son tells me you wont let him play football. Principal: Mr. Smith, the OHSAA says your family must jump through these additional hoops to be eligible. Parent: I give no damns about the OHSAA. You run this school. Do your job. Do you have a good reason why my son can't play football? Principal: No, but I won't let him play until OHSAA says its okay. Parent: See you in court. LOL at having to prove to some private organization that you moved for the reasons they deem acceptable. And people are wondering why interest in school sports is low. If your school chooses to be a member of the OHSAA by definition they are agreeing to whatever regulations are in place to govern it. Sure, you can let anybody play regardless of their ruling. But when your school is told that it must forfeit games and be banned from postseason play don't complain because you knew what the rules were when you did it. Also, the court granted a TEMPORARY reprieve against the OHSAA not Oak Harbor.
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Post by galion on Oct 13, 2019 4:09:26 GMT -5
Tell that to their teammates when the ohsaa declares oak Harbor ineligible for post season play for playing athletes who they ruled ineligible. No court can overrule that. I don't think that will happen if they end up being declared ineligible because there was (is) a temporary injunction. At the very least after the OHSAA wins the case, as they always eventually do, Oak Harbor will be made to forfeit whatever games that the twins played in after week 5. Oak Harbor is a member of the OHSAA, as such they agreed to follow OHSAA rules and regulations. That is iron clad and has always held up in court. I feel badly for the rest of that team who are going to get burned by this come week 11.
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Post by sportsvideo on Oct 13, 2019 5:47:34 GMT -5
I don't think that will happen if they end up being declared ineligible because there was (is) a temporary injunction. At the very least after the OHSAA wins the case, as they always eventually do, Oak Harbor will be made to forfeit whatever games that the twins played in after week 5. Oak Harbor is a member of the OHSAA, as such they agreed to follow OHSAA rules and regulations. That is iron clad and has always held up in court. I feel badly for the rest of that team who are going to get burned by this come week 11. The sad part to this story is..they don't need them to win the Bay Division or make the playoffs.. i don't think however that it changes the results from yesterday today or tomorrow, but it will affect their basketball season as they will get just half a season and then shut down..
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Post by Whittaker on Oct 13, 2019 6:49:54 GMT -5
Here is how the conversation should go: Parent: Mr. Principal, my son tells me you wont let him play football. Principal: Mr. Smith, the OHSAA says your family must jump through these additional hoops to be eligible. Parent: I give no damns about the OHSAA. You run this school. Do your job. Do you have a good reason why my son can't play football? Principal: No, but I won't let him play until OHSAA says its okay. Parent: See you in court. LOL at having to prove to some private organization that you moved for the reasons they deem acceptable. And people are wondering why interest in school sports is low. If your school chooses to be a member of the OHSAA by definition they are agreeing to whatever regulations are in place to govern it. And if your school is a public school in the State of Ohio, they are bound by state law as determined by state judges. If you are a principal and have the choice of violating an OHSAA bylaw or a state court ruling, which do you choose?
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Post by sportsvideo on Oct 13, 2019 7:13:12 GMT -5
If your school chooses to be a member of the OHSAA by definition they are agreeing to whatever regulations are in place to govern it. And if your school is a public school in the State of Ohio, they are bound by state law as determined by state judges. If you are a principal and have the choice of violating an OHSAA bylaw or a state court ruling, which do you choose? So basically what you're saying is do away with any transfer or switching school rules out there and make it a free for all? Since they can't even be allowed to get past step one, whats the sense of having anything in place?? Go ahead, go back to the old days of free for all.... Private schools would dominate once again...
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Post by kingmartinez on Oct 13, 2019 7:57:07 GMT -5
Keep in mind a ruling hasn't been made...it was a "temporary injunction".
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Post by usramfan on Oct 13, 2019 8:12:10 GMT -5
And if your school is a public school in the State of Ohio, they are bound by state law as determined by state judges. If you are a principal and have the choice of violating an OHSAA bylaw or a state court ruling, which do you choose? So basically what you're saying is do away with any transfer or switching school rules out there and make it a free for all? Since they can't even be allowed to get past step one, whats the sense of having anything in place?? Go ahead, go back to the old days of free for all.... Private schools would dominate once again... Sadly, with situations like these where the students and their parents think that the rules don't apply to them, I also fear that we are headed that direction.
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Post by Whittaker on Oct 13, 2019 8:24:18 GMT -5
LOL at OHSAA(who refuses eligibility to a family of citizens who moved 2 miles into a different school district but grants eligibility to a family of illegal immigrants who moved 3,000 miles from South America). If your intent is to violate the law, your kid can play football. If your intent is to get your kid in a better sports program, your kid is ineligible. And most laughable, if you can't prove, to our satisfaction, your reason for moving, your kid is ineligible.
What people should understand is that a bunch of high school principals are using OHSAA to implement eligibility rules that would get them run out of town if they implemented them individually in their own schools(the only place the citizens have granted them authority). OHSAA is valuable regarding their other practical and organizational endeavors such as creating divisions and tourneys, but they should stay away from residency/transfer/eligibility issues. If a kid is properly enrolled in a school he should be able to join a sports team, with local exceptions due to grade, discipline or health issues. If we accept the premise that school sports is a big plus in the life of our young people, we have to stop empowering eggheads to find more ways to keep the kids from playing.
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Post by Whittaker on Oct 13, 2019 8:39:10 GMT -5
And if your school is a public school in the State of Ohio, they are bound by state law as determined by state judges. If you are a principal and have the choice of violating an OHSAA bylaw or a state court ruling, which do you choose? So basically what you're saying is do away with any transfer or switching school rules out there and make it a free for all? Since they can't even be allowed to get past step one, whats the sense of having anything in place?? Go ahead, go back to the old days of free for all.... Private schools would dominate once again... Yes. If a kid is properly enrolled in a public school, let him play unless there are local issues concerning grades, discipline or health. We need more kids playing, not less. If your school has a problem with how another school does sports, don't schedule them. If you lose to them in the playoffs?...guess what...that is one of those life lessons in adversity you mentioned earlier. And BTW, don't assume the transfer problem has been fixed by OHSAA rules. Certain programs will always find a way to game the system. Pretty soon you guys will be okay with an OHSAA Swat Team that swoops in on families after midnight searching for evidence of true residency such as orphan socks and husbands sleeping on the couch.
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Post by Whittaker on Oct 13, 2019 9:18:52 GMT -5
So basically what you're saying is do away with any transfer or switching school rules out there and make it a free for all? Since they can't even be allowed to get past step one, whats the sense of having anything in place?? Go ahead, go back to the old days of free for all.... Private schools would dominate once again... Sadly, with situations like these where the students and their parents think that the rules don't apply to them, I also fear that we are headed that direction. OHSAA's rules, in the strict sense, do not apply to students and parents. OHSAA's agreement is with the school. Students and parent have not signed a contract with OHSAA. They didn't elect them and can't vote them out. Sure, if the school has adopted OHSAA's rules they now become the rules of the school. And those rules can be challenged in court. And in many cases, courts have ruled that high school sports eligibility is not some pure privilege that can be awarded and retracted according to arbitrary rules forced on the student by 3rd party agreements. It is not enough for a public entity to just say "This is the rule". When you are denying someone access to government funded and administered activities and facilities, you need a rational and compelling reason. The rule may be justified in the eyes of the law. And it may not. But I don't blame the parents one bit for fighting for their kids despite the opposition of OHSAA(who has no legal duty to parents or children) or sports fans worried that tomorrow's local stud will head to greener pastures. BTW, you folks know that a stud athlete's family who is prevented by transfer eligibility rules from playing sports in Ohio can simply move out of the state? I guess that would be a victory in the eyes of Ohio's High School Principals.
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Post by dude on Oct 13, 2019 9:23:53 GMT -5
Sounds like the kids AND A PARENT with custody physically moved into the OH district. This meets the one or two of the exceptions allowed by OHSAA. Everything else could be opinion. If OHSAA wants to start winning these arguments, eliminate the exceptions. I’m away from my computer right now so I can’t verify, But I remember reading that essentially OHSAA believed the father was lying about how much time he spent at his ‘new place’ due to conflicting reports between the father and mother about where the daughter? was living. So, the father did ‘move’ to the OH district, however still spent a majority of his time in Fremont and then lied to try to downplay how much time he actually wasn’t in OH. I’m just going on memory here. I’d recommend reading the OHSAA transcript notes and OHSAA closing remarks. I think when you factor in the timeline of AAU, the setup behind the scenes of that, the timeline of the known court documented dates, and the several contradictory statements given by the plaintiffs, it does not look good for the Plaintiffs or the OH school system. I have never understood why all the drama is needed. Make the rules simple and go. Do they live inside the district? If parents want to physically pick up they home and move it just for a kids education why is that not allowed? Eliminate the exceptions and just make the rules simple and clear.
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Post by dolittle on Oct 13, 2019 9:35:48 GMT -5
Right.
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