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Post by heresjim on Dec 17, 2020 21:10:12 GMT -5
I read today that suicide watches have been placed on 17 basketball players in the Columbus area that have not been allowed to play games this year. For many kids in big cities sports are their life, their escape, their only reason for living. Another cause of death by THE virus that will not officially be attributed to it. If certain kids have to rely so much on sports to have success or satisfaction in life, that is a societal failure rather than a covid response issue. Also this stat is misleading. How many kids suffer season ending injuries and become suicidal from not playing games? Or become suicidal from not able to meet expectations for the season? Or when their performance gets them benched? You got to give better context for us to make a proper comparison.
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Post by fanofthegame on Dec 17, 2020 21:17:41 GMT -5
I was told by a medical professional that during the process of compiling the list of people who should first get the vaccines, anyone under the age of 16 years was disqualified because they are not at risk. If this is a fact, the closure of schools and youth sports has nothing to do with the safety of our kids. I was told by a medical professional that the vaccine wasn't tested on kids, so they don't know if it safe for them yet. I'll post a link to another source to at least give a little credibility. And while kids don't usually get as sick, they do pass it to others. Lots of kids are being raised by grandparents, live with people with conditions that put them at risk etc... The policy isn't just about the safety of kids, it's also about the safety of those they interact with. apnews.com/article/will-get-children-coronavirus-vaccine-1e007933dc3eace15bc1f9f60670955cIt was not tested on children that young and the FDA would not authorize it for that age. I would assume that the thought process of not playing is specifically to minimize spread not to protect the kids.
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Post by fanofthegame on Dec 17, 2020 21:19:54 GMT -5
I read today that suicide watches have been placed on 17 basketball players in the Columbus area that have not been allowed to play games this year. For many kids in big cities sports are their life, their escape, their only reason for living. Another cause of death by THE virus that will not officially be attributed to it. If certain kids have to rely so much on sports to have success or satisfaction in life, that is a societal failure rather than a covid response issue. Also this stat is misleading. How many kids suffer season ending injuries and become suicidal from not playing games? Or become suicidal from not able to meet expectations for the season? Or when their performance gets them benched? You got to give better context for us to make a proper comparison. Suicide is the number one cause of death in teen boys so yes, anything that stresses them out will increase that risk.
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Post by heresjim on Dec 17, 2020 21:41:08 GMT -5
I am seeing numbers as high as double than than 2018, but that still leaves us .2% morality rate at the worst (and you could argue it is less based on how many people actually get test, seek treatment blah blah... like most things people can say for covid).At the end of the day, covid is still clearly more deadly. What is even more important is its capacity to spread, which means far more dice are being rolled on a per year basis, which means more deaths as a whole. Not to mention the deaths due to overwhelmed health systems. I'm not saying our covid response isn't without consequences, but we have to be careful about making assertions when we don't have hard data on the consequences. I don't know where we are at suicides right now, but I highly doubt we are over double our national average (~50000 a year), nor do I think most damage done is irreversible from a more serious response. What isn't irreversible is the sheer amount of death that a lax response to covid brings. What also isn't irreversible are the many chronic ailments people will have after suffering damage from the virus. My first comment was to point out we should use facts not inflammatory language when discussing COVID, not to say we shouldn’t be taking action. We absolutely should be taking action. Post game we will be able to analyze how many people died from COVID versus how many people died from COVID restrictions. I believe COVID deaths will be greater than COVID restrictions, but the later will not be insignificant. We should analyze that data so going forward we can make better decisions that balance ALL risks versus benefits. There will be some long term sequela, but that is unknown. I can promise you the amount of people who will claim long term disability we exceed the people who really suffer long term problems. After dealing with this on the front lines for months I guess I’m just frustrated hearing people who have minimal experience and expertise boiling this down to one extreme or the other. This is a very nuanced issue that literally changes on a day to day basis. Yes, you stated we should use facts rather than inflammatory language, but the statistics you used provides an implicit message. By stating that the mortality numbers are .7% for the flu without sourcing your numbers, questioning the magnitude of the death rate of covid, and nebulously calling out inflammatory language without providing examples provides a pretty one sided story (even if you don't mean it to be). I was just trying to provide some balance and additional context to what gets posted here normally. We should advocate for a nuanced approach, but we need a proper frame of information to strike the right balance.
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Post by dude on Dec 17, 2020 22:35:19 GMT -5
I was told by a medical professional that during the process of compiling the list of people who should first get the vaccines, anyone under the age of 16 years was disqualified because they are not at risk. If this is a fact, the closure of schools and youth sports has nothing to do with the safety of our kids. I was told by a medical professional that the vaccine wasn't tested on kids, so they don't know if it safe for them yet. I'll post a link to another source to at least give a little credibility. And while kids don't usually get as sick, they do pass it to others. Lots of kids are being raised by grandparents, live with people with conditions that put them at risk etc... The policy isn't just about the safety of kids, it's also about the safety of those they interact with. apnews.com/article/will-get-children-coronavirus-vaccine-1e007933dc3eace15bc1f9f60670955cOK, so we lock a kid in their room because grandma could get sick.
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Post by awebgsu on Dec 17, 2020 22:46:53 GMT -5
I read today that suicide watches have been placed on 17 basketball players in the Columbus area that have not been allowed to play games this year. For many kids in big cities sports are their life, their escape, their only reason for living. Another cause of death by THE virus that will not officially be attributed to it. Google has failed me in trying to find this actual story. I saw the reference in the News Journal story, but can't find a story for that headline.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Dec 17, 2020 23:06:25 GMT -5
I read today that suicide watches have been placed on 17 basketball players in the Columbus area that have not been allowed to play games this year. For many kids in big cities sports are their life, their escape, their only reason for living. Another cause of death by THE virus that will not officially be attributed to it. If certain kids have to rely so much on sports to have success or satisfaction in life, that is a societal failure rather than a covid response issue. Also this stat is misleading. How many kids suffer season ending injuries and become suicidal from not playing games? Or become suicidal from not able to meet expectations for the season? Or when their performance gets them benched? You got to give better context for us to make a proper comparison. I can see you lack empathy. Having not pondered what it would be like to be an athlete, your outlet for frustrations, living in poverty with no father. I pity you.
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Post by heresjim on Dec 17, 2020 23:21:18 GMT -5
If certain kids have to rely so much on sports to have success or satisfaction in life, that is a societal failure rather than a covid response issue. Also this stat is misleading. How many kids suffer season ending injuries and become suicidal from not playing games? Or become suicidal from not able to meet expectations for the season? Or when their performance gets them benched? You got to give better context for us to make a proper comparison. I can see you lack empathy. Having not pondered what it would be like to be an athlete, your outlet for frustrations, living in poverty with no father. I pity you. Where is the lack of empathy? I didn't say they should suck it up, I said it was a societal failure that this is all they have to look forward to. It sucks that this has to be taken from them and they don't have an alternative path to find fulfillment in life. And my second point remains unaddressed. As much as sports provide meaning and satisfaction, they are also a source of injury, stress, and depression. My challenge was for you to quantify the difference to be able to provide a better comparison.
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Post by heresjim on Dec 17, 2020 23:28:18 GMT -5
I was told by a medical professional that the vaccine wasn't tested on kids, so they don't know if it safe for them yet. I'll post a link to another source to at least give a little credibility. And while kids don't usually get as sick, they do pass it to others. Lots of kids are being raised by grandparents, live with people with conditions that put them at risk etc... The policy isn't just about the safety of kids, it's also about the safety of those they interact with. apnews.com/article/will-get-children-coronavirus-vaccine-1e007933dc3eace15bc1f9f60670955cOK, so we lock a kid in their room because grandma could get sick. There are 13 million kids living with their grandparents currently so I don't understand why this is the response I get. We aren't just doing this just to save Jimmy's grandma. Also, think big picture. It's the parents with health conditions, or parents come in contact with people who they have to work with, or its just mitigating the spread of disease so that health systems are overwhelmed, or it's to preserve the staff who work at the schools who are at risk, or it's to prevent someone's parents from having to miss work and miss out on income etc...
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Dec 17, 2020 23:34:14 GMT -5
I can see you lack empathy. Having not pondered what it would be like to be an athlete, your outlet for frustrations, living in poverty with no father. I pity you. Where is the lack of empathy? I didn't say they should suck it up, I said it was a societal failure that this is all they have to look forward to. It sucks that this has to be taken from them and they don't have an alternative path to find fulfillment in life. And my second point remains unaddressed. As much as sports provide meaning and satisfaction, they are also a source of injury, stress, and depression. My challenge was for you to quantify the difference to be able to provide a better comparison. I don't need to be challenged by someone with such a black hole of a heart. I just state a fact and let you do what you do.
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Post by heresjim on Dec 18, 2020 0:10:31 GMT -5
Where is the lack of empathy? I didn't say they should suck it up, I said it was a societal failure that this is all they have to look forward to. It sucks that this has to be taken from them and they don't have an alternative path to find fulfillment in life. And my second point remains unaddressed. As much as sports provide meaning and satisfaction, they are also a source of injury, stress, and depression. My challenge was for you to quantify the difference to be able to provide a better comparison. I don't need to be challenged by someone with such a black hole of a heart. I just state a fact and let you do what you do. At least fanofthegame and I can have a coherent discussion about what we disagree on and talk points out like adults. I thought you learned through college debates that an ad hominem attack isn't an argument.
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Post by fanofthegame on Dec 18, 2020 6:31:41 GMT -5
I don't need to be challenged by someone with such a black hole of a heart. I just state a fact and let you do what you do. At least fanofthegame and I can have a coherent discussion about what we disagree on and talk points out like adults. I thought you learned through college debates that an ad hominem attack isn't an argument. Now you see the point of my post that sparked our most recent debate. It followed a post by this same person. I’m working on my source for the numbers I quoted. It is a two hour lecture that I listened to and I’m going to re-listen (it’s good to listen to educational lectures twice anyway - sometimes you miss things). You should probably get that black hole heart looked at. I know a couple of good cardiologists.
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Post by dude on Dec 18, 2020 7:59:46 GMT -5
OK, so we lock a kid in their room because grandma could get sick. There are 13 million kids living with their grandparents currently so I don't understand why this is the response I get. We aren't just doing this just to save Jimmy's grandma. Also, think big picture. It's the parents with health conditions, or parents come in contact with people who they have to work with, or its just mitigating the spread of disease so that health systems are overwhelmed, or it's to preserve the staff who work at the schools who are at risk, or it's to prevent someone's parents from having to miss work and miss out on income etc... How could you possibly know that? Then the parents decide what their kids can do. To many people are becoming okay with giving up their freedom to make decisions about their own life and taking the responsibility for it. I as a parent will decide what is best for my child and for their grandparent when it concerns my child coming in contact with them. NOt a school and not a government.
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Post by heresjim on Dec 18, 2020 13:09:57 GMT -5
There are 13 million kids living with their grandparents currently so I don't understand why this is the response I get. We aren't just doing this just to save Jimmy's grandma. Also, think big picture. It's the parents with health conditions, or parents come in contact with people who they have to work with, or its just mitigating the spread of disease so that health systems are overwhelmed, or it's to preserve the staff who work at the schools who are at risk, or it's to prevent someone's parents from having to miss work and miss out on income etc... How could you possibly know that? Then the parents decide what their kids can do. To many people are becoming okay with giving up their freedom to make decisions about their own life and taking the responsibility for it. I as a parent will decide what is best for my child and for their grandparent when it concerns my child coming in contact with them. NOt a school and not a government. fathermatters.org/23-statistics-on-grandparents-raising-grandchildren/#:~:text=Across%20the%20United%20States%2C%20more,in%20homes%20with%20their%20grandparents. A more dated, but more reputable source puts the number at 8 million about 10 years ago. www.aarp.org/content/dam/aarp/relationships/friends-family/grandfacts/grandfacts-national.pdfFreedom isn't always about giving people the ability to do what they want. If you endow too much authority to the individual, you get an anarchic system where people can make decisions which hinders the freedom and livelihood of others. There is a reason we don't just let everyone make choices about whether they can drink and drive, pay taxes, smoke in public places etc... There are certain situations where if you let people make decisions, they will decide things which will hurt themselves and others. If you let people decide whether they send kids to school, there will be people at risk who die/suffer chronic conditions due to decisions made by others in the household, teachers will be forced/heavily pressured to put themselves at risk to teach in person etc... Ultimately, freedom is a balancing act which stems from how you distribute power. Shifting power away from the government doesn't always mean that power is redistributed evenly back to everyday citizens. Some citizens will use that power to hurt others. Just as you may make a decision to make sure the vulnerable in your household are protected, others will decide to put them at risk. And I think in this particular situation (not in all situations obviously), it would be best not to allow a personal decision in the matter.
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Post by dude on Dec 18, 2020 13:44:52 GMT -5
People have their parents moving in and out of their homes ever day. Many even report retired grandparents living with them for tax reasons for the permanent residence while the vacation home in another state is their true home. There is very little chance those numbers can be accurate.
We are talking about the freedoms inside our own homes. My neighbor can have an anarchic system inside his walls and it's none of my business. Or yours.
I would not want to make national decisions for your certain situations that affect .06% of the country like here in Ohio.
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Post by heresjim on Dec 18, 2020 14:18:56 GMT -5
People have their parents moving in and out of their homes ever day. Many even report retired grandparents living with them for tax reasons for the permanent residence while the vacation home in another state is their true home. There is very little chance those numbers can be accurate. We are talking about the freedoms inside our own homes. My neighbor can have an anarchic system inside his walls and it's none of my business. Or yours. I would not want to make national decisions for your certain situations that affect .06% of the country like here in Ohio. That doesn't make any sense. You don't need to have your parents living with you to claim them as dependents. Why would you lie about it when you don't need to? Btw, that number alone is 4% of the population (1/25 people). Also, it becomes my issue when there isn't enough hospital beds for me due to kids getting too many people within the population sick. Household decisions don't just impact people in the household. For example, if your neighbor is letting their grass grow out and letting their house fall to disrepair, that impacts you and the value of your house. If they don't take care of a certain leaning tree, it might come down and destroy your property. Not everything happens in a vacuum.
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Post by dude on Dec 18, 2020 23:49:36 GMT -5
People have their parents moving in and out of their homes ever day. Many even report retired grandparents living with them for tax reasons for the permanent residence while the vacation home in another state is their true home. There is very little chance those numbers can be accurate. We are talking about the freedoms inside our own homes. My neighbor can have an anarchic system inside his walls and it's none of my business. Or yours. I would not want to make national decisions for your certain situations that affect .06% of the country like here in Ohio. That doesn't make any sense. You don't need to have your parents living with you to claim them as dependents. Why would you lie about it when you don't need to? Btw, that number alone is 4% of the population (1/25 people). Also, it becomes my issue when there isn't enough hospital beds for me due to kids getting too many people within the population sick. Household decisions don't just impact people in the household. For example, if your neighbor is letting their grass grow out and letting their house fall to disrepair, that impacts you and the value of your house. If they don't take care of a certain leaning tree, it might come down and destroy your property. Not everything happens in a vacuum. 4% of the population has died?
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Post by heresjim on Dec 19, 2020 9:29:26 GMT -5
That doesn't make any sense. You don't need to have your parents living with you to claim them as dependents. Why would you lie about it when you don't need to? Btw, that number alone is 4% of the population (1/25 people). Also, it becomes my issue when there isn't enough hospital beds for me due to kids getting too many people within the population sick. Household decisions don't just impact people in the household. For example, if your neighbor is letting their grass grow out and letting their house fall to disrepair, that impacts you and the value of your house. If they don't take care of a certain leaning tree, it might come down and destroy your property. Not everything happens in a vacuum. 4% of the population has died? Where did I say that? That is the population percentage share that those people make up. At the very least, decisions made by state governments to require remote school could help protect a share of them. Do we really think the costs of 5 more months of remote learning out weigh the benefits of saving thousands of lives? The cost isn't zero, but it certainly can't be that high.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Dec 19, 2020 11:05:30 GMT -5
Those that will die over the next 5 months either will commit suicide by not staying safe or will be killed by friends and/or relatives with the virus that won't keep their distance from them. It is not logical how students figure into the death equation.
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Post by fanofthegame on Dec 19, 2020 11:38:18 GMT -5
4% of the population has died? Where did I say that? That is the population percentage share that those people make up. At the very least, decisions made by state governments to require remote school could help protect a share of them. Do we really think the costs of 5 more months of remote learning out weigh the benefits of saving thousands of lives? The cost isn't zero, but it certainly can't be that high. I disagree with “certainly can’t be that high.” Remote learning is inferior to in person purely based on academic measures. This is especially true when it is administered with a system designed to be in person and adapted to remote. School isn’t just academics. Kids are learning to be humans. Wait your turn. Put your immediate needs secondary to someone else’s. Group dynamics. All gone with remote learning. How many students experience their best interactions at school. They have parents that barely participate in their lives let alone their education. No computer or internet. Two less meals per day. Masking is even an issue. Study upon study has shown how much of our communication is non-verbal. Facial expression, posture, etc. How much are we losing behind masks? Now the really controversial point. Everyone has been given the lifeboat or fallout shelter exercise. You have a lifeboat that holds 10 people and your given 20 different profiles for people with different strengths and weaknesses and you have to pick the 10 that live. Is jeopardizing our youth’s education worth the life of an 80 year old, 70 year old... What if that 70 year old already has lung disease, is a cancer survivor, etc. Richland County’s deaths at 59 out of approximately 120,000 people. Is that worth diminishing the education of the future population? Let’s say it makes a measurable difference in one child per class tipping them from a productive member of society to a member dependent on the government for life. Twelve grades, nine school districts. That’s 108 people that now depend on the government that otherwise wouldn’t have. I acknowledge I pulled those numbers from space with no backing, but you get my point. Tough decisions.
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Post by heresjim on Dec 19, 2020 12:37:57 GMT -5
Where did I say that? That is the population percentage share that those people make up. At the very least, decisions made by state governments to require remote school could help protect a share of them. Do we really think the costs of 5 more months of remote learning out weigh the benefits of saving thousands of lives? The cost isn't zero, but it certainly can't be that high. I disagree with “certainly can’t be that high.” Remote learning is inferior to in person purely based on academic measures. This is especially true when it is administered with a system designed to be in person and adapted to remote. School isn’t just academics. Kids are learning to be humans. Wait your turn. Put your immediate needs secondary to someone else’s. Group dynamics. All gone with remote learning. How many students experience their best interactions at school. They have parents that barely participate in their lives let alone their education. No computer or internet. Two less meals per day. Masking is even an issue. Study upon study has shown how much of our communication is non-verbal. Facial expression, posture, etc. How much are we losing behind masks? Now the really controversial point. Everyone has been given the lifeboat or fallout shelter exercise. You have a lifeboat that holds 10 people and your given 20 different profiles for people with different strengths and weaknesses and you have to pick the 10 that live. Is jeopardizing our youth’s education worth the life of an 80 year old, 70 year old... What if that 70 year old already has lung disease, is a cancer survivor, etc. Richland County’s deaths at 59 out of approximately 120,000 people. Is that worth diminishing the education of the future population? Let’s say it makes a measurable difference in one child per class tipping them from a productive member of society to a member dependent on the government for life. Twelve grades, nine school districts. That’s 108 people that now depend on the government that otherwise wouldn’t have. I acknowledge I pulled those numbers from space with no backing, but you get my point. Tough decisions. Well we aren't picking whether kids are dying or living, so I don't think your life boat analogy works here. I know it isn't ideal but it is 5 months, not the rest of their education. And we have to quantify the quality of education as well. Are kids getting 80% of the education they normally get, 60%? Can they bounce back easily or will those losses be permanent? Are there kids who are going to struggle people who would normally have been fine in normal situations or would they have suffered anyways? I can't quantify it right now, but it seems we can work hard to recover the losses. We still provide food for those who can't get it at home. We can't recover lost life. I'm not saying this is an easy decision, but we can't recoup permanent losses. We can at least try to fix non fatal mistakes.
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Post by dude on Dec 19, 2020 13:52:49 GMT -5
4% of the population has died? Where did I say that? That is the population percentage share that those people make up. At the very least, decisions made by state governments to require remote school could help protect a share of them. Do we really think the costs of 5 more months of remote learning out weigh the benefits of saving thousands of lives? The cost isn't zero, but it certainly can't be that high. You obviously do not understand tax benefits. There are many retirement age individuals in this country that CLAIM a home address and LIVE in a vacation home because the tax breaks from one state can be such a benefit that it can help payroll the retirees life. My percentage was deaths. The cost or 100% remote learning is a terribly high cost. In many ways.
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Post by fanofthegame on Dec 19, 2020 14:12:21 GMT -5
I disagree with “certainly can’t be that high.” Remote learning is inferior to in person purely based on academic measures. This is especially true when it is administered with a system designed to be in person and adapted to remote. School isn’t just academics. Kids are learning to be humans. Wait your turn. Put your immediate needs secondary to someone else’s. Group dynamics. All gone with remote learning. How many students experience their best interactions at school. They have parents that barely participate in their lives let alone their education. No computer or internet. Two less meals per day. Masking is even an issue. Study upon study has shown how much of our communication is non-verbal. Facial expression, posture, etc. How much are we losing behind masks? Now the really controversial point. Everyone has been given the lifeboat or fallout shelter exercise. You have a lifeboat that holds 10 people and your given 20 different profiles for people with different strengths and weaknesses and you have to pick the 10 that live. Is jeopardizing our youth’s education worth the life of an 80 year old, 70 year old... What if that 70 year old already has lung disease, is a cancer survivor, etc. Richland County’s deaths at 59 out of approximately 120,000 people. Is that worth diminishing the education of the future population? Let’s say it makes a measurable difference in one child per class tipping them from a productive member of society to a member dependent on the government for life. Twelve grades, nine school districts. That’s 108 people that now depend on the government that otherwise wouldn’t have. I acknowledge I pulled those numbers from space with no backing, but you get my point. Tough decisions. Well we aren't picking whether kids are dying or living, so I don't think your life boat analogy works here. I know it isn't ideal but it is 5 months, not the rest of their education. And we have to quantify the quality of education as well. Are kids getting 80% of the education they normally get, 60%? Can they bounce back easily or will those losses be permanent? Are there kids who are going to struggle people who would normally have been fine in normal situations or would they have suffered anyways? I can't quantify it right now, but it seems we can work hard to recover the losses. We still provide food for those who can't get it at home. We can't recover lost life. I'm not saying this is an easy decision, but we can't recoup permanent losses. We can at least try to fix non fatal mistakes. There are always kids on the bubble. They can go either way. This will tip a few in the wrong direction and you’re overly optimistic, IMO, that any effort will be made to make up what was lost. It’s not spoken about in polite company, but there is value placed on human life and they aren’t all valued the same. Actuarial firms calculate value to decide what to charge you for life insurance. Car companies use them to determine what is cheaper between issuing a recall and fixing a problem versus the cost of the lawsuits from accidents caused by the defect. I promise you they could calculate the cost to society for a certain educational loss compared to the value of a person who is any given age. There are worse things than elderly people dying. A life of poverty, drugs, government dependence and the fact that that is a perpetuating cycle. For the individual they are both bad, but for society one is clearly worse. Look, I really think we are at the point we could make a big difference with reasonable and acceptable intervention. My frustration is decisions are being made because they look good whether there is enough return on the effort. We need to take the Swiss cheese approach to this. One piece of Swiss cheese won’t stop much due to the holes, but 5-6 slices stacked with the holes misaligned will do the job. Those pieces of Swiss cheese need to provide the biggest benefit balanced with the least amount of effort. Masks are just easy. Not perfect, but easy. Wear one. Social distance, wash hands, sanitize surfaces, limit attendance at events, lower capacity at restaurants. How about also promoting things that improve people’s health. Eat right, exercise and lose weight, take vitamin D, don’t smoke. Crickets chirping on that front. I’m not sure 20 kids from two schools on a basketball court and 80 family members in a gym that holds 1000+ people are the Typhoid Mary in this situation.
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Post by heresjim on Dec 19, 2020 17:10:39 GMT -5
Where did I say that? That is the population percentage share that those people make up. At the very least, decisions made by state governments to require remote school could help protect a share of them. Do we really think the costs of 5 more months of remote learning out weigh the benefits of saving thousands of lives? The cost isn't zero, but it certainly can't be that high. You obviously do not understand tax benefits. There are many retirement age individuals in this country that CLAIM a home address and LIVE in a vacation home because the tax breaks from one state can be such a benefit that it can help payroll the retirees life. My percentage was deaths. The cost or 100% remote learning is a terribly high cost. In many ways. www.condohotelcenter.com/articles/a80.html#:~:text=Now%2C%20however%2C%20as%20more%20Americans,new%20options%20is%20gaining%20popularity. Only 5 million Americans have vacation homes and not all of them are elderly. And if they aren't living in their home address the majority of the year, they are committing tax fraud. Think all of those people are elderly, have claiming a home address they share with their children/grandchildren, and all of them are lying about actually being there? Even then, you are coming up millions short.
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Post by heresjim on Dec 19, 2020 17:23:15 GMT -5
Well we aren't picking whether kids are dying or living, so I don't think your life boat analogy works here. I know it isn't ideal but it is 5 months, not the rest of their education. And we have to quantify the quality of education as well. Are kids getting 80% of the education they normally get, 60%? Can they bounce back easily or will those losses be permanent? Are there kids who are going to struggle people who would normally have been fine in normal situations or would they have suffered anyways? I can't quantify it right now, but it seems we can work hard to recover the losses. We still provide food for those who can't get it at home. We can't recover lost life. I'm not saying this is an easy decision, but we can't recoup permanent losses. We can at least try to fix non fatal mistakes. There are always kids on the bubble. They can go either way. This will tip a few in the wrong direction and you’re overly optimistic, IMO, that any effort will be made to make up what was lost. It’s not spoken about in polite company, but there is value placed on human life and they aren’t all valued the same. Actuarial firms calculate value to decide what to charge you for life insurance. Car companies use them to determine what is cheaper between issuing a recall and fixing a problem versus the cost of the lawsuits from accidents caused by the defect. I promise you they could calculate the cost to society for a certain educational loss compared to the value of a person who is any given age. There are worse things than elderly people dying. A life of poverty, drugs, government dependence and the fact that that is a perpetuating cycle. For the individual they are both bad, but for society one is clearly worse. Look, I really think we are at the point we could make a big difference with reasonable and acceptable intervention. My frustration is decisions are being made because they look good whether there is enough return on the effort. We need to take the Swiss cheese approach to this. One piece of Swiss cheese won’t stop much due to the holes, but 5-6 slices stacked with the holes misaligned will do the job. Those pieces of Swiss cheese need to provide the biggest benefit balanced with the least amount of effort. Masks are just easy. Not perfect, but easy. Wear one. Social distance, wash hands, sanitize surfaces, limit attendance at events, lower capacity at restaurants. How about also promoting things that improve people’s health. Eat right, exercise and lose weight, take vitamin D, don’t smoke. Crickets chirping on that front. I’m not sure 20 kids from two schools on a basketball court and 80 family members in a gym that holds 1000+ people are the Typhoid Mary in this situation. I would love to promote better lifestyle choices, but it is a little late for preventative care once a pandemic had begun. I'm all for finding informal ways to get behavior changed for the better. I'm all for those other precautionary measures as well, but we are talking about schooling right? Masks are a good step, but most schools don't have the resources to fully execute a plan which enforces social distancing, get janitors to do extra sanitizing, make sure all the students are wearing masks etc... I'm all ears for other ideas though. Wish we could have someone provide us numbers on 5 months of educational value vs a certain thousand amounts of lives too. Do you have any sources about the damage of going 5 months with remote learning? That might help frame where to go next.
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Post by dude on Dec 19, 2020 18:47:01 GMT -5
You obviously do not understand tax benefits. There are many retirement age individuals in this country that CLAIM a home address and LIVE in a vacation home because the tax breaks from one state can be such a benefit that it can help payroll the retirees life. My percentage was deaths. The cost or 100% remote learning is a terribly high cost. In many ways. www.condohotelcenter.com/articles/a80.html#:~:text=Now%2C%20however%2C%20as%20more%20Americans,new%20options%20is%20gaining%20popularity. Only 5 million Americans have vacation homes and not all of them are elderly. And if they aren't living in their home address the majority of the year, they are committing tax fraud. Think all of those people are elderly, have claiming a home address they share with their children/grandchildren, and all of them are lying about actually being there? Even then, you are coming up millions short. Actually you would be coming up millions short. Do you think people that you claim are committing fraud would report who they live with? Own a house in Ohio and live in an apartment in Florida. Own the family home in Ohio where you son and his family lives while you rent a condo in Arizona.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Dec 19, 2020 19:25:22 GMT -5
Age is not the factor it used to be with 10's of millions or 42% of the labor force working from home. The size of the house is not important. What state the residences are located in is the primary factor. People live in and work from home, 183 days of the yea.r in the State that has the lowest State tax rate...saving thousands per year,.
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Post by heresjim on Dec 19, 2020 19:45:18 GMT -5
www.condohotelcenter.com/articles/a80.html#:~:text=Now%2C%20however%2C%20as%20more%20Americans,new%20options%20is%20gaining%20popularity. Only 5 million Americans have vacation homes and not all of them are elderly. And if they aren't living in their home address the majority of the year, they are committing tax fraud. Think all of those people are elderly, have claiming a home address they share with their children/grandchildren, and all of them are lying about actually being there? Even then, you are coming up millions short. Actually you would be coming up millions short. Do you think people that you claim are committing fraud would report who they live with? Own a house in Ohio and live in an apartment in Florida. Own the family home in Ohio where you son and his family lives while you rent a condo in Arizona. What do you mean I'm coming up millions short? The stat is based off of census data so... if they arn't reporting who they live with, they aren't getting counted as living with their grandchildren.
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Post by dude on Dec 19, 2020 19:53:12 GMT -5
Actually you would be coming up millions short. Do you think people that you claim are committing fraud would report who they live with? Own a house in Ohio and live in an apartment in Florida. Own the family home in Ohio where you son and his family lives while you rent a condo in Arizona. What do you mean I'm coming up millions short? The stat is based off of census data so... if they arn't reporting who they live with, they aren't getting counted as living with their grandchildren. You can report you live in any of your houses regardless of the one you actually live in. They are all yours.
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Post by heresjim on Dec 19, 2020 19:53:39 GMT -5
Age is not the factor it used to be with 10's of millions or 42% of the labor forcing working from home. The size of the home is not important. What state the residences are located in is the primary factor. People live in and work from home 183 days of the year in the State that has the lowest State tax rate,,,saving thousands per year,. Exactly, which is why it's strange that dude thinks that 13 million grandparents living with grandchildren is impossible. There can't be enough elderly people who own vacation homes, claim they live at a permanent residence with their grandchildren, and then commit fraud by lying about actually being at that permanent residence to account for a third of that number.
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