2112
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Posts: 210
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Post by 2112 on May 27, 2021 20:59:20 GMT -5
So, now that the OH to NBC deal is settled... time for a rousing discussion on SBC realignment! For all the claimed gripey-ness about this team having to play those bigger teams on-the-regular and being flight risks because of it... they all knew that was a possibility when they came in. Schools on the edges of conference footprints are always flight risks subject to the "grass is greener" mentality. That a team might fly the coop every once in awhile is expected. OH is also on the edge of the NBC's footprint... so they're still a flight risk in their new home... you could almost get away with starting an "OH to SBC" thread right now lol. Because conference membership evolves, a larger, multi-divisional conference provides stability. Kinda like a battery or water tower... they have the resources to absorb the effects of membership evolution... it is exactly why they exist... they just shuffle teams around to the best option. As things sit now, I'm thinking the most likely option is 6+6+6. Lake | Bay | River | 341 Sandusky 336 Columbian 328 Norwalk 264 Perkins 261 Clyde 258 Bellevue | 250 Vermilion 247 Port Clinton 212 Edison 210 Huron 176 Willard 166 Lakota | 141 Woodmore 139 Margaretta 126 Gibsonburg 121 Hopewell-Loudon 52 Calvert 44 SJCC |
If the N10 somehow does end up taking Willard, and SMCC somehow actually plays 11-man ball, Woodmore would be the next to rise: Lake | Bay | River | 341 Sandusky 336 Columbian 328 Norwalk 264 Perkins 261 Clyde 258 Bellevue | 250 Vermilion 247 Port Clinton 212 Edison 210 Huron 166 Lakota 141 Woodmore | 139 Margaretta 126 Gibsonburg 121 Hopewell-Loudon 52 Calvert 44 SJCC ?? SMCC |
However, if one of these things comes true and the other doesn't, then we're probably looking more at a 6+6+7 with Willard in the Bay and Woodmore & SMCC in the River. Now... if SBC had to drop to 16 teams... then an 8+8 could look like this (here I lost Willard, SMCC doesn't come up to 11-man, and SJCC fades away): Lake | River | 341 Sandusky 336 Columbian 328 Norwalk 264 Perkins 261 Clyde 258 Bellevue 250 Vermilion 247 Port Clinton | 212 Edison 210 Huron 166 Lakota 141 Woodmore 139 Margaretta 126 Gibsonburg 121 Hopewell-Loudon 52 Calvert
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Of the schools surrounding the SBC, the best shots for recruitment in looks like: 459 Ross 362 Bowling Green 220 Firelands 209 Upper Sandusky 207 Fostoria 199 Liberty-Benton 169 Wynford 152 Bucyrus 150 Van Buren 148 Colonel Crawford 142 Seneca East 126 Carey 108 Mohawk 73 Buckeye Central All of these are imperfect in one manner or another. But they are what's available... and it looks like if SBC is wanting to add teams to stabilize or get to that dreamy 8-8-8, they're gonna have to be open to some longer travel or play bigger schools. If they were, then I'd be looking hard at the top 6 teams on that list. Interestingly, most of them are either geographic or enrollment outliers in their current conferences, so there may be some leverage there. And of course there are these FC teams which are probably going nowhere: 137 Western Reverse 124 New London 100 Monroeville 99 South Central 96 Plymouth 95 NSP Either way, it'll be interesting to see how the other dominos fall and how this will affect the SBC.
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Post by redskinfan04 on May 27, 2021 22:05:01 GMT -5
The bay schools will fall in with the lake and some sort of creative scheduling will be used to make it work.
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jafo
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Post by jafo on May 27, 2021 22:59:07 GMT -5
2112, very thorough job. You may have more time on your hands than I do. Sure it's going to be easy for everyone to criticize and they will. Since I don't have a horse in the race I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the "experts" responses.
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2112
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Posts: 210
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Post by 2112 on May 28, 2021 1:12:50 GMT -5
I dunno about having more time, but earthshattering topics like this must be discussed. And Lord knows this discussion simply can't go on without me. LOL
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Post by litebrite on May 28, 2021 6:55:57 GMT -5
Woodmore is really hoping for 3 divisions still I'd bet.
They just left the NBC to be the "big dog" in the river, and now there's the possibility that they will have PC, Huron, Edison, and Vermillion in their division lol. Ouch!
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Post by richrod on May 28, 2021 8:01:49 GMT -5
I dunno about having more time, but earthshattering topics like this must be discussed. And Lord knows this discussion simply can't go on without me. LOL bighoss might get mad that you are speculating. but entertaining nonetheless
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Post by richrod on May 28, 2021 8:03:03 GMT -5
Woodmore is really hoping for 3 divisions still I'd bet. They just left the NBC to be the "big dog" in the river, and now there's the possibility that they will have PC, Huron, Edison, and Vermillion in their division lol. Ouch! I am sure they have assurances they will be in the river. Willard will likely be the odd man out, and I think part of that has to do with two things: 1. the fact they have always seemed to be looking for greener pastures since this started. 2. they seem to be extremely whiny, especially about being in the river
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Post by runawaytrain on May 28, 2021 9:59:19 GMT -5
Lakota certainly won't want to go anywhere other than the River and they can't win in that. I think you'd see the River teams break off into their own conference before Lakota and Woodmore go up and play the likes of Huron.
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Post by sbclives on May 28, 2021 11:16:32 GMT -5
I think the River teams need to break off on their own and Huron, Edison, PC and Vermilion to be combined with the Lake teams. None of those River teams are going to want to play up considering some got out of leagues for that exact reason.
Huron, Edison, PC and Vermilion have very little to no choice in this now. They will have to take what they can get. Unfortunately these four got left behind and didn’t try to be proactive and now will be kicked around by the Lake schools.
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Post by litebrite on May 28, 2021 11:49:49 GMT -5
I think the SBC has learned rather quickly, you can't sustain "divisions". Or at the very least, it is very difficult to effectively do so. I am sure there are some conferences in Ohio that do it successfully but there's got to be a lot of massaging and constant management I am sure.
At this rate, the River should break off and form their own conference. Pull in a Bay team or two. And the Lake should do the same.
The River can maybe go to Ken James' conference. Pickup Northwood, Swanton, or Delta.
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Post by dude on May 28, 2021 12:16:04 GMT -5
I think the SBC has learned rather quickly, you can't sustain "divisions". Or at the very least, it is very difficult to effectively do so. I am sure there are some conferences in Ohio that do it successfully but there's got to be a lot of massaging and constant management I am sure. At this rate, the River should break off and form their own conference. Pull in a Bay team or two. And the Lake should do the same. The River can maybe go to Ken James' conference. Pickup Northwood, Swanton, or Delta. The Columbus OCC comes to mind but those schools are very much connected in other ways so it may assist in the maintenance of the league. Many if not all of those schools are of the same division is sports which may help them. Trying to maintain harmony in dealing with 3 divisions of school who are spread out among most of the divisions that OHSAA offers in their sports has proven to be an obstacle they have difficulty with.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on May 28, 2021 14:29:49 GMT -5
Goodness this is inspiring me to put out my pamphlets for my envisioned Richland County League - Part 2.
Say what you will about Shelby leaving the SBC, but I'm positive the potential for uncertainties like this one played a role. It was hard enough to have the cultural washing away of the NOL, but it especially hurt to stop playing Bellevue, Norwalk, & Tiffin in return for longer drives against less compelling opponents for Shelby (eh, solely in football, I digress).
If I'm in the SBC, I cut my losses. How exactly is the Lake division doing any better by being associated with the Bay and River at this point? Even with an imperfect 6 team total, it seems like a truly cohesive unit (and a reason why Shelby didn't want be in the Bay division).
If the SBC tries to grow, the list of schools provided by 2112 are indicative of some of the short-sightedness of their planning from the beginning. The SBC knew exactly who was nearby when the re-formed. It wasn't like they had visions of going 60+ minutes for road trips. A conference with roots in allowing teams favors to avoid competition stood no chance of binding those same teams to less favorable settings. As Dude mentioned, the Columbus OCC functions much better, perhaps under the guise of trying to allocate the shifting growth patterns of the city as opposed to playing match-maker in the SBC. Heck, Pick Central plays Groveport-Madison and some other abominable program in their division all the time. You can't even strong-arm Bay teams to play Lake teams.
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Post by sportsvideo on May 28, 2021 19:31:09 GMT -5
Lake | Bay | River | 341 Sandusky 336 Columbian 328 Norwalk 264 Perkins 261 Clyde 258 Bellevue | 250 Vermilion 247 Port Clinton 212 Edison 210 Huron 176 Willard 166 Lakota | 141 Woodmore 139 Margaretta 126 Gibsonburg 121 Hopewell-Loudon 52 Calvert 44 SJCC |
Novel Idea.. for football only LAKE | BAY | RIVER | SANDUSKY | PORT CLINTON | WILLARD | TIFFIN COL. | VERMILION | LAKOTA | NORWALK | HURON | WOODMORE | CLYDE | EDISON | GIBSONBURG | BELLEVUE | PERKINS | MARGARETTA |
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| HOPEWELL |
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| TC , SJCC |
So the Lake and Bay have 4 league games. And lets have a 2 game cross over that rotates every two years.. That would give you 6 games... example lets say 2024 and 2025 pc plays sand, tiffin, ... vermilion play norwalk clyde, . huron plays bellevue sandusky.... edison plays tiffin norwalk, ..perkins plays clyde bellevue in 2026 and 2027 rotate pc norwalk clyde, -- vermilion plays bellevue sandusky.... huron plays tiffin norwalk ... edison plays clyde bellevue... perkins play sandusky tiffin and you just keep rotating it every two years.... that way everyone given a fair shake.... so yes we each have to find 4 non conference games....
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2112
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Posts: 210
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Post by 2112 on May 29, 2021 2:17:35 GMT -5
Another option could be this 10+8 arrangement I saw on Yappi: Gulf | Pond | 341 Sandusky 336 Columbian 328 Norwalk 264 Perkins 261 Clyde 258 Bellevue 250 Vermilion 247 Port Clinton 212 Edison 210 Huron | 176 Willard 166 Lakota 141 Woodmore 139 Margaretta 126 Gibsonburg 121 Hopewell-Loudon 52 Calvert 44 SJCC
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A 10-team deal isn't ideal, but to me it beats a 6-team. And Willard gets to be that big fish in a small pond. Leaves room for Seneca East, Northwood, SMCC, and/or Danbury too. Huron and Edison could probably make the playoffs in a 5-5 year with this schedule, maybe 4-6 since they're letting almost everyone in now.
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Post by runawaytrain on May 29, 2021 9:06:39 GMT -5
SMCC is scheduled for an 11-man team, so until that changes I think they have to be factored in.
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Post by edchambers on May 29, 2021 10:59:18 GMT -5
Lake | Bay | River | 341 Sandusky 336 Columbian 328 Norwalk 264 Perkins 261 Clyde 258 Bellevue | 250 Vermilion 247 Port Clinton 212 Edison 210 Huron 176 Willard 166 Lakota | 141 Woodmore 139 Margaretta 126 Gibsonburg 121 Hopewell-Loudon 52 Calvert 44 SJCC |
Novel Idea.. for football only LAKE | BAY | RIVER | SANDUSKY | PORT CLINTON | WILLARD | TIFFIN COL. | VERMILION | LAKOTA | NORWALK | HURON | WOODMORE | CLYDE | EDISON | GIBSONBURG | BELLEVUE | PERKINS | MARGARETTA |
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| HOPEWELL |
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| TC , SJCC |
So the Lake and Bay have 4 league games. And lets have a 2 game cross over that rotates every two years.. That would give you 6 games... example lets say 2024 and 2025 pc plays sand, tiffin, ... vermilion play norwalk clyde, . huron plays bellevue sandusky.... edison plays tiffin norwalk, ..perkins plays clyde bellevue in 2026 and 2027 rotate pc norwalk clyde, -- vermilion plays bellevue sandusky.... huron plays tiffin norwalk ... edison plays clyde bellevue... perkins play sandusky tiffin and you just keep rotating it every two years.... that way everyone given a fair shake.... so yes we each have to find 4 non conference games.... This makes too much sense so it will never happen.
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Post by kingmartinez on May 29, 2021 11:54:08 GMT -5
SMCC is scheduled for an 11-man team, so until that changes I think they have to be factored in. Hearing 11-man is a serious concern now…
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Post by kingmartinez on May 29, 2021 11:54:56 GMT -5
Novel Idea.. for football only LAKE | BAY | RIVER | SANDUSKY | PORT CLINTON | WILLARD | TIFFIN COL. | VERMILION | LAKOTA | NORWALK | HURON | WOODMORE | CLYDE | EDISON | GIBSONBURG | BELLEVUE | PERKINS | MARGARETTA |
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| HOPEWELL |
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| TC , SJCC |
So the Lake and Bay have 4 league games. And lets have a 2 game cross over that rotates every two years.. That would give you 6 games... example lets say 2024 and 2025 pc plays sand, tiffin, ... vermilion play norwalk clyde, . huron plays bellevue sandusky.... edison plays tiffin norwalk, ..perkins plays clyde bellevue in 2026 and 2027 rotate pc norwalk clyde, -- vermilion plays bellevue sandusky.... huron plays tiffin norwalk ... edison plays clyde bellevue... perkins play sandusky tiffin and you just keep rotating it every two years.... that way everyone given a fair shake.... so yes we each have to find 4 non conference games.... This makes too much sense so it will never happen. Realistically the only situation that seems plausible at this point.
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Post by sportsvideo on May 29, 2021 19:24:29 GMT -5
This makes too much sense so it will never happen. Realistically the only situation that seems plausible at this point. i think so..and i chose perkins to move to the bay, because i think their kids are built like those teams in the bay...they don't have the big linemen, they have a lot of skilled kids.. which i think makes this a more competitive situation.. now can i get the principals to agree?
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Post by falcon87 on May 29, 2021 19:36:25 GMT -5
SMCC is scheduled for an 11-man team, so until that changes I think they have to be factored in. Hearing 11-man is a serious concern now… Based on recent history as soon as they suggested they’d play 11-man AD’s and coaches River-wide should have cringed. Let me suggest the only shock is the SBC continues to allow this fantasy. Is this the issue that causes the River to leave the SBC?
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Post by sbclives on May 29, 2021 20:16:57 GMT -5
Why doesn’t SMCC just do basketball, wrestling and baseball instead of their fantasy 11 man football and save everyone a lot of time. At this point they are lucky to even play flag football.
The River just needs to break off and be their own league. If someone from the River gets called up to the Bay there will be a lot of hard feelings. Willard at least has a couple options. The middle 4 have nowhere to go but the Lake.
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Deleted
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Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 21:36:41 GMT -5
Goodness this is inspiring me to put out my pamphlets for my envisioned Richland County League - Part 2. Say what you will about Shelby leaving the SBC, but I'm positive the potential for uncertainties like this one played a role. It was hard enough to have the cultural washing away of the NOL, but it especially hurt to stop playing Bellevue, Norwalk, & Tiffin in return for longer drives against less compelling opponents for Shelby (eh, solely in football, I digress). If I'm in the SBC, I cut my losses. How exactly is the Lake division doing any better by being associated with the Bay and River at this point? Even with an imperfect 6 team total, it seems like a truly cohesive unit (and a reason why Shelby didn't want be in the Bay division). If the SBC tries to grow, the list of schools provided by 2112 are indicative of some of the short-sightedness of their planning from the beginning. The SBC knew exactly who was nearby when the re-formed. It wasn't like they had visions of going 60+ minutes for road trips. A conference with roots in allowing teams favors to avoid competition stood no chance of binding those same teams to less favorable settings. As Dude mentioned, the Columbus OCC functions much better, perhaps under the guise of trying to allocate the shifting growth patterns of the city as opposed to playing match-maker in the SBC. Heck, Pick Central plays Groveport-Madison and some other abominable program in their division all the time. You can't even strong-arm Bay teams to play Lake teams. ahh but Shelby wanted to be in the Bay division for football, in fact, they pushed for it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 21:39:34 GMT -5
Realistically the only situation that seems plausible at this point. i think so..and i chose perkins to move to the bay, because i think their kids are built like those teams in the bay...they don't have the big linemen, they have a lot of skilled kids.. which i think makes this a more competitive situation.. now can i get the principals to agree? why not just base it on enrollment, so if it ends up being bellevue or clyde would you still be okay with it? i think the Bay wants Perkins because they have been weak in football for the past few years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 21:46:43 GMT -5
This makes too much sense so it will never happen. Realistically the only situation that seems plausible at this point. why? 5 team league for football is pretty weak. 4 league games isn't necessarily great. Harder to schedule weeks 4-6 Why can't these schools just look to create some types of football only league? I feel like that would solve a lot of problems
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Post by kingmartinez on May 30, 2021 5:39:54 GMT -5
Required crossovers would fill weeks 4-6.
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Post by sportsvideo on May 30, 2021 6:22:49 GMT -5
i think so..and i chose perkins to move to the bay, because i think their kids are built like those teams in the bay...they don't have the big linemen, they have a lot of skilled kids.. which i think makes this a more competitive situation.. now can i get the principals to agree? why not just base it on enrollment, so if it ends up being bellevue or clyde would you still be okay with it? i think the Bay wants Perkins because they have been weak in football for the past few years. enrollment isn't always the best option. Looking out for everyone not just one or two.. if you put bellevue in the bay they'd probably win it 9 out of 10 times.. Is that really what you want? and a 10 team league? That is what a lazy AD wants.. ideal is 8.. but we can make it work with 5 plus 2 mandatory crossovers that rotate to give everyone the same opportunity. and thats not to say you can't add a 3rd cross over on your own.. But not every school is a football school.. Lets think of the struggling programs. give them opportunity to find someone they can compete with.. Not every student can handle honors classes in school.. Some struggle so they need classes they can learn in.. sports is the same.. If we were not worried about giving teams a chance to compete at their level, then blow up the river and make it even out... I don't want to see that.. Wouldn't do any good to put a team like Lakota in the Bay if they're going to get running clock every time out... Using Vermilion as an example.. we know things are on the upswing but if they could schedule 4 games they could win 4-6 for that program is a boost.. We have to as a league make it work for everyone, not the lazy AD...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2021 7:14:49 GMT -5
why not just base it on enrollment, so if it ends up being bellevue or clyde would you still be okay with it? i think the Bay wants Perkins because they have been weak in football for the past few years. enrollment isn't always the best option. Looking out for everyone not just one or two.. if you put bellevue in the bay they'd probably win it 9 out of 10 times.. Is that really what you want? and a 10 team league? That is what a lazy AD wants.. ideal is 8.. but we can make it work with 5 plus 2 mandatory crossovers that rotate to give everyone the same opportunity. and thats not to say you can't add a 3rd cross over on your own.. But not every school is a football school.. Lets think of the struggling programs. give them opportunity to find someone they can compete with.. Not every student can handle honors classes in school.. Some struggle so they need classes they can learn in.. sports is the same.. If we were not worried about giving teams a chance to compete at their level, then blow up the river and make it even out... I don't want to see that.. Wouldn't do any good to put a team like Lakota in the Bay if they're going to get running clock every time out... Using Vermilion as an example.. we know things are on the upswing but if they could schedule 4 games they could win 4-6 for that program is a boost.. We have to as a league make it work for everyone, not the lazy AD... The principals I believe make these decisions not the AD's. So is the league set up to help struggling programs then? If so why not move struggling basketball programs around or baseball or softball? Look even with mandatory crossovers as King suggested it will still be Bay teams looking to avoid tiffin, Bellevue, and Clyde. Lake should hold firm at 6. I'd hardly say 5 teams is a league.
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Post by sportsvideo on May 30, 2021 8:39:19 GMT -5
enrollment isn't always the best option. Looking out for everyone not just one or two.. if you put bellevue in the bay they'd probably win it 9 out of 10 times.. Is that really what you want? and a 10 team league? That is what a lazy AD wants.. ideal is 8.. but we can make it work with 5 plus 2 mandatory crossovers that rotate to give everyone the same opportunity. and thats not to say you can't add a 3rd cross over on your own.. But not every school is a football school.. Lets think of the struggling programs. give them opportunity to find someone they can compete with.. Not every student can handle honors classes in school.. Some struggle so they need classes they can learn in.. sports is the same.. If we were not worried about giving teams a chance to compete at their level, then blow up the river and make it even out... I don't want to see that.. Wouldn't do any good to put a team like Lakota in the Bay if they're going to get running clock every time out... Using Vermilion as an example.. we know things are on the upswing but if they could schedule 4 games they could win 4-6 for that program is a boost.. We have to as a league make it work for everyone, not the lazy AD... The principals I believe make these decisions not the AD's. So is the league set up to help struggling programs then? If so why not move struggling basketball programs around or baseball or softball? Look even with mandatory crossovers as King suggested it will still be Bay teams looking to avoid tiffin, Bellevue, and Clyde. Lake should hold firm at 6. I'd hardly say 5 teams is a league. other sports have more "wiggle room" basketball you can play 22 games football you are at 10.. and no you can't avoid the cross over, because it is mandatory and rotated.. yes you'll get your butt kicked if you're weak program a couple times a year.. there isn't going to be a perfect science to this.. i get that and so does everyone else...but a 10 team league has no wiggle room for football... Also I am pretty sure the principals get feed back from their AD and coaches before making a move..
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Post by fbfan on May 30, 2021 8:59:23 GMT -5
The principals I believe make these decisions not the AD's. So is the league set up to help struggling programs then? If so why not move struggling basketball programs around or baseball or softball? Look even with mandatory crossovers as King suggested it will still be Bay teams looking to avoid tiffin, Bellevue, and Clyde. Lake should hold firm at 6. I'd hardly say 5 teams is a league. other sports have more "wiggle room" basketball you can play 22 games football you are at 10.. and no you can't avoid the cross over, because it is mandatory and rotated.. yes you'll get your butt kicked if you're weak program a couple times a year.. there isn't going to be a perfect science to this.. i get that and so does everyone else...but a 10 team league has no wiggle room for football... Also I am pretty sure the principals get feed back from their AD and coaches before making a move.. That is where the NCC was in it's final years. Two 5 team divisions (large and small) with 3 mandatory crossovers. The small schools didn't like that. Buckeye Central made it to the State Championship game in their division, but still lost 2 of those 3 crossovers, one year. They tried to expand but couldn't find schools needed to do it equally. No schools willing to join the large school division could be found (Willard was one of them at the time). Sound familiar? Ultimately, the small schools found 3 other small schools to form the N10 with. I see the drama continuing, and same future for the SBC if they go to mandatory crossovers.
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Post by sportsvideo on May 30, 2021 9:11:14 GMT -5
other sports have more "wiggle room" basketball you can play 22 games football you are at 10.. and no you can't avoid the cross over, because it is mandatory and rotated.. yes you'll get your butt kicked if you're weak program a couple times a year.. there isn't going to be a perfect science to this.. i get that and so does everyone else...but a 10 team league has no wiggle room for football... Also I am pretty sure the principals get feed back from their AD and coaches before making a move.. That is where the NCC was in it's final years. Two 5 team divisions (large and small) with 3 mandatory crossovers. The small schools didn't like that. Buckeye Central made it to the State Championship game in their division, but still lost 2 of those 3 crossovers, one year. They tried to expand but couldn't find schools needed to do it equally. No schools willing to join the large school division could be found (Willard was one of them at the time). Sound familiar? Ultimately, the small schools found 3 other small schools to form the N10 with. I see the drama continuing, and same future for the SBC if they go to mandatory crossovers. its a league on life support... making a 10 league team and you'll see it explode and quickly.. the problem is its all about football..the other sports are surviving fine.. if we are going to "force " teams to move..then blow up the river .. and move a couple bays into the lake to get two 8 team leagues..
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