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Post by Whittaker on Jun 20, 2017 17:13:55 GMT -5
"If they don't, where most of our fruits and vegetables going to come from?"
Labor is subject to the law of supply and demand. If an employer can't get anyone to take the job at $10 per hour, he may have to pay $11 or $12. If the price of vegetables go up because the labor is priced higher, then that vegetable is priced correctly in a free market. All vegetable farmers will be competing on a level playing field if they have to hire legally. Of course that assumes we wish to be a country that believes in the rule of law and free enterprise. As of now, farmers who hire illegals have a competitive advantage over those who don't as illegals will generally work for a lower wage or employers will pay in cash "under the table" to avoid taxes and other business costs.
I was raised on a farm. I have no sympathy for farmers who flout labor laws to make more profit. If you pay enough you can always find someone to do the work. If you can't make a living paying a legal worker a legal wage, you need to sell out and get a regular job.
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Post by sportsjock on Jun 20, 2017 21:18:43 GMT -5
Simply put, there is no logical excuse for not attaining a green card, if you wish to work as a migrant laborer in this country. Those that choose otherwise, should face the consequences. Generations and generations of migrant laborers have come to this country in a legal and proper manner. Unfortunately, there are political and legal groups that promote otherwise, for a variety of reasons, most of which, are political in nature.
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Post by fanofthegame on Jun 20, 2017 21:30:16 GMT -5
Here are the steps to becoming a naturalized American. Obtain a green card. ... Maintain a physical presence. ... Complete the USCIS form N-400. ... Be fingerprinted. ... Pass the interview and naturalization test. ... Attend the oath ceremony. No excuses. Easy to do. I'm all for following the law and I appreciate this summary, but this isn't the whole picture. What are the steps to getting a green card? Cost? Can it be done from a foreign country or do you have to come to the US to get one? Is there a waiting period? You get what I'm asking. Getting a green card sounds simple, but is it? Same questions for completing and submitting the N-400. I believe immigrants should come in legally. Have we made it nearly impossible? Anyone ever tried to get a car title transferred from one state to another? If all goes well it's two trips to the title agency and two to the BMV if you include getting plates. I did it once and it took two extra trips because mistakes on forms (Ohio is an "and" state not an "or" state - both my wife's name and mine were on the paperwork with an "or" between them) and my wife got to the title agency before 4:30, but I arrived at 4:34. There is a reason they are behind two inches of bullet proof glass. I struggled and I speak the language. There are plenty of people on this site who are unhappy with our bureaucracy when it affects them, but are quick to expect immigrants to navigate it. What we should be more outraged about is teet sucking Americans that won't take an $18/hour job while collecting a check paid for by my taxes. Who would you rather have in the country? A hard working pull himself up by the bootstraps immigrant or a third generation welfare drawing heroin addict?
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Post by sportsjock on Jun 21, 2017 0:02:45 GMT -5
Here are the steps to becoming a naturalized American. Obtain a green card. ... Maintain a physical presence. ... Complete the USCIS form N-400. ... Be fingerprinted. ... Pass the interview and naturalization test. ... Attend the oath ceremony. No excuses. Easy to do. I'm all for following the law and I appreciate this summary, but this isn't the whole picture. What are the steps to getting a green card? Cost? Can it be done from a foreign country or do you have to come to the US to get one? Is there a waiting period? You get what I'm asking. Getting a green card sounds simple, but is it? Same questions for completing and submitting the N-400. I believe immigrants should come in legally. Have we made it nearly impossible? Anyone ever tried to get a car title transferred from one state to another? If all goes well it's two trips to the title agency and two to the BMV if you include getting plates. I did it once and it took two extra trips because mistakes on forms (Ohio is an "and" state not an "or" state - both my wife's name and mine were on the paperwork with an "or" between them) and my wife got to the title agency before 4:30, but I arrived at 4:34. There is a reason they are behind two inches of bullet proof glass. I struggled and I speak the language. There are plenty of people on this site who are unhappy with our bureaucracy when it affects them, but are quick to expect immigrants to navigate it. What we should be more outraged about is teet sucking Americans that won't take an $18/hour job while collecting a check paid for by my taxes. Who would you rather have in the country? A hard working pull himself up by the bootstraps immigrant or a third generation welfare drawing heroin addict? Very good points, agree totally.
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Post by tommygunn on Jun 21, 2017 6:45:05 GMT -5
Illegal vs legal. Law of the land. Sorry some of you can't see it. If I drive without a license and get pulled over and come to find out I have not had a license for 16 years and my excuse is "well, I have to drive to work to support my family". What do you think is going to happen to me? Im going to get a fine and told if I am caught again, I will probably go to jail for some time. The guy in the article has been here for way to long not to pursue citizenship. If he cared about his family so much, that would have been a priority.
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Post by fanofthegame on Jun 21, 2017 7:06:13 GMT -5
Illegal vs legal. Law of the land. Sorry some of you can't see it. If I drive without a license and get pulled over and come to find out I have not had a license for 16 years and my excuse is "well, I have to drive to work to support my family". What do you think is going to happen to me? Im going to get a fine and told if I am caught again, I will probably go to jail for some time. The guy in the article has been here for way to long not to pursue citizenship. If he cared about his family so much, that would have been a priority. I agree. He should have started the process a long time ago, but not an apples to apples comparison. You getting a drivers license is one trip to the BMV and $40-50 (whatever the current tax is). His process involves a lot more steps, cost, and a risk of deportation. We'd all like this discussion to be black and white, but the reality is there are shades of gray (like most things in life).
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Post by tommygunn on Jun 21, 2017 7:30:46 GMT -5
Not really, you have to take a course, pass a test, take a driving test etc. Ultimately it comes down to being illegal is being illegal. Where was all this talk when Obama was deporting illegals left and right. Oh, that is right, nothing to see here.
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Post by tommygunn on Jun 21, 2017 7:33:37 GMT -5
Drive down 103 and around town and see the deplorable conditions these workers live in and then lets have the talk about these farmers really caring. Its laughable. I would not let my worst enemy stay in those shacks on 103, but these millionaire farmers, who care all of a sudden, drive past them every day without looking at them twice. The word hypocrisy comes to mind.
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Post by sportsjock on Jun 21, 2017 7:45:01 GMT -5
Drive down 103 and around town and see the deplorable conditions these workers live in and then lets have the talk about these farmers really caring. Its laughable. I would not let my worst enemy stay in those shacks on 103, but these millionaire farmers, who care all of a sudden, drive past them every day without looking at them twice. The word hypocrisy comes to mind. I wouldn't make a generalization on all farmers who enlist migrant workers. I know in my area the shacks and decrepit trailers of old have been replace with very neat and up to date cabins, built to code. Like was mentioned earlier, it is a competitive industry, competitive for consistent, dependable and loyal migrants that want to return year after year. You treat your workers fairly, with respect and reward them with decent housing and decent pay, you will be rewarded in return.
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Post by ronswanson on Jun 21, 2017 7:48:54 GMT -5
Yeah it's not as easy as we all probably think it is until you put yourself in their shoes. Remember a lot of these people don't have permanent residence anywhere as they are moving every 3-4 months to work the next agriculture job. We, in our permanent homes with year round jobs and all our luxuries, can sit here and say how easy it is until we actually have to do it ourselves in a foreign country.
And I am friends with some farmers, not in the willard area but nearby, and if they are millionaires then I'm a billionaire.
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Post by Rambo McClain on Jun 21, 2017 8:53:41 GMT -5
I call them the slave quarters. Only the best for modern day slaves. That's why they come here illegally and are now working at a factory or have their own restaurant. Slaves don't like being slaves, so they move away from their slave masters. Did the NY Times interview a current illegal that was working the fields?
And remember they do not pay $18 an hour to all those people in the field - Only the very fastest worker they have makes that on their best day, most of them get paid less because they aren't as fast. They are paid by their production.
Imagine paying up to $36/hour for the fastest worker in the field. Is food going to become too expensive? lol The price would NOT double by doubling how much they make. Field work is not all that goes into the price. Plenty of overhead (office workers, truckers, etc) The price would probably go from something that costs $1.00 in the store to costing $1.30 in the store.
You might find some LEGAL citizens willing to work 7/8 months a year for $36 an hour with winters off.
Trump needs to stop ILLEGAL Immigration. Fine the snot out of any employer who hires an illegal, watch the pay rate sky rocket (supply & demand), and the price of goods to barely go up.
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Post by Whittaker on Jun 21, 2017 9:49:12 GMT -5
Imagine if your local school district put an announcement in the paper saying:
"We have good news for the local taxpayers. We are currently hiring all new teachers at the rate of $9.00 per hour. They are all certified teachers in their home countries. Because of our budget problems,the state of Ohio has issued a waiver that allows us to employ these teachers while they work to obtain state certification and legal status. The INS has agreed to not deport these teachers as long as they don't commit any serious crimes. This is a needed solution to our budget woes as we have found that Americans aren't willing to do the hard work of teaching unless we pay them upwards of $20.00 per hour. Some teachers are currently making over $30.00 per hour with generous benefits. We don't want the cost of education to squeeze middle class families any more than we want them squeezed by the cost of radishes and cucumbers. This "good government" solution is spreading. It is projected that by 2019 more than 80% of public school teachers in Ohio will be foreign nationals. We also expect local governments to go this route with police, firefighters and garbage collectors. We would like to thank the local farmers and Cedar Point for suggesting this cost effective measure that will save the taxpayers millions of dollars. We urge parents and students to welcome these new, hardworking public servants. In other business the board passed a resolution approving the use of the gym and field house as temporary housing for any public employee making less than $9.50 per hour. Those locations will be cleared for student activity between the hours of 7am - 9pm weekdays and 10am - midnight on Friday & Saturday.
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Post by fanofthegame on Jun 21, 2017 10:57:10 GMT -5
Imagine if your local school district put an announcement in the paper saying: "We have good news for the local taxpayers. We are currently hiring all new teachers at the rate of $9.00 per hour. They are all certified teachers in their home countries. Because of our budget problems,the state of Ohio has issued a waiver that allows us to employ these teachers while they work to obtain state certification and legal status. The INS has agreed to not deport these teachers as long as they don't commit any serious crimes. This is a needed solution to our budget woes as we have found that Americans aren't willing to do the hard work of teaching unless we pay them upwards of $20.00 per hour. Some teachers are currently making over $30.00 per hour with generous benefits. We don't want the cost of education to squeeze middle class families any more than we want them squeezed by the cost of radishes and cucumbers. This "good government" solution is spreading. It is projected that by 2019 more than 80% of public school teachers in Ohio will be foreign nationals. We also expect local governments to go this route with police, firefighters and garbage collectors. We would like to thank the local farmers and Cedar Point for suggesting this cost effective measure that will save the taxpayers millions of dollars. We urge parents and students to welcome these new, hardworking public servants. In other business the board passed a resolution approving the use of the gym and field house as temporary housing for any public employee making less than $9.50 per hour. Those locations will be cleared for student activity between the hours of 7am - 9pm weekdays and 10am - midnight on Friday & Saturday. That's a scary thought. The only problem I have with that argument is nobody is lining up for these farm jobs. They're too hard for most. That is better pay than most starting factory jobs around here (if you are unskilled). You're looking at $12-14/hr to start. I grew up on a farm. We grew hand harvested veggies. We payed piecemeal. We had school teachers that would work summers for us because it you're good and work hard you can make a lot of money. Those days are gone. Too many people are unwilling to work that hard and consider the work beneath them. You can't pay hourly or they'll do the bare minimum. I'd bet if you doubled the rate you'd still struggle to get people locally to do the work.
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Post by Rambo McClain on Jun 21, 2017 11:45:40 GMT -5
^^ Nobody is lining up because they are seasonal jobs, the rate is for a seasonal job not a year long job so the rate needs to be higher to draw people in. People care what they make in a YEAR, not an hour. If people could make 50-60K working in the fields for 7/8 months and get 4 months off you'd see a lot of people lining up to work in the fields. People would be leaving the factories to work in the fields instead of the other way around. These illegals are making what 30K a year on the farm, that is why the NY Times was interviewing all FORMER farm workers. They all quit working in the farms and went to the factory where they could make more in a 12 month calendar year.
Whittaker, beautiful analogy. If the US went that route then in 10 years we'd hear how Americans will not do those jobs (teachers) and that's why the US must let in illegals. Yeah, nobody will do that job for that wage. Pay more. Even the illegals leave the farm jobs because they won't pay enough.
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Post by fanofthegame on Jun 21, 2017 12:06:09 GMT -5
People work for 1/2 that year around. It's called McDonalds. Of course people move on to better jobs. I'm 46 and I've worked one minimum wage job my whole life (starting at age 7). Every other job since then my pay has increased. Everyone proves themselves, educates themselves, moves up in pay and responsibilities. Why do you use references when you apply to the next job? Because you're moving on to a lower paying job that's easier? 30K ain't too shabby especially if you make it in 7-9 months. I promise you he didn't take the winter off.
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Post by sportsjock on Jun 21, 2017 13:31:50 GMT -5
It's called capitalism, it works and no one has come up with any better system. Take out incentives to better one's self and you end up with a stagnant, lazy, entitlement seeking leeches on society. Provide them with avenues of opportunity, but don't give them benefits they haven't earned. The ghettos of our major cities are testimonial to the failure in that mindset.
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Post by Whittaker on Jun 21, 2017 15:54:05 GMT -5
Even the illegals leave the farm jobs because they won't pay enough. Yes. I posted on the first page how only about 4% of illegals work in farming and constitute only about 25% of the farm workforce. The narrative that we need illegals or we won't have decently priced vegetables is false. Some farmers want cheap, exploitable labor. That's pretty much the whole story. Illegals are much less likely to form unions, make worker's compensation claims, make safety complaints, or raise a stink about unpaid overtime. They are more afraid of being deported than of being mistreated by employers. I won't mention how some illegals bring their small children into the fields to up their production and therefore their pay rate while the farmers look the other way. I guess if you are going to ignore the law against employing illegals, child labor laws can be ignored too.
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Post by fanofthegame on Jun 21, 2017 16:25:35 GMT -5
^ +1
Where were the child labor people when I was working at 7 yo. Oh, right, those laws don't apply to children of the farm owner 😳. The first year I paid into social security was 1977. I was born in '70. No mercy from grandma in payroll.
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Post by sportsjock on Jun 21, 2017 16:52:12 GMT -5
^ +1 Where were the child labor people when I was working at 7 yo. Oh, right, those laws don't apply to children of the farm owner 😳. The first year I paid into social security was 1977. I was born in '70. No mercy from grandma in payroll. LOL.....I can relate to that. Now you know why there were such large farm families. The children learn a strong work ethic at an early age and it usually served them well throughout their adulthood. Working as a family unit to maintain the family farm is not abuse, potentially it could be, but in most all cases, it is not.
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Post by Whittaker on Jun 21, 2017 19:02:41 GMT -5
^^^^^ Agree with both of you. I also worked on the farm from an early age and I have no complaints. It did me good.
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Post by tommygunn on Jun 22, 2017 7:07:57 GMT -5
Lol, the farms are short handed not because of Trump. This has been happening for years. These migrants, most of whom are here illegally are looking around and thinking, Poop, why should I be out here working like a slave for 500 a week when I can go get a restaurant job, or factory job and get paid better and not work as hard. Ask your local deputy sheriff about the logs of illegals wanted for drugs and crime related to it.
I see Trump wants to pass a law forbidding migrants from any government assistance for 5 years when they arrive in America. This is something everyone should be able to get behind.
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Post by tommygunn on Jun 22, 2017 7:11:48 GMT -5
What is also hilarious is the people who support illegals. Why do they? Because they are not in their neighborhoods, living next to them or threatening their job. My aunt, who is a loony toon, thinks this way. I asked her if an group of illegals started up a business similar to hers right down the road, that she would be okay with it. She was left speechless and deflected.
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Post by fanofthegame on Jun 22, 2017 16:14:04 GMT -5
Bottom line, for me, is I'm for following the law. I'm against making laws that make it hard for motivated, good, hard working people to to come to the land of opportunity and be successful. I've heard way more inspirational stories than criminal. I have a cousin who runs a landscaping company in southern Ohio. He employs immigrants (legal or not, I don't know). He mentioned, in passing, that he was moving. That weekend several whole families showed up, with food, and moved him. He didn't even ask. The older kids and wives even kept an eye on his young daughter. That's the kind of people we need more of to dilute the parasites our social democracy has created.
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Post by tommygunn on Jun 23, 2017 7:12:44 GMT -5
Trumps new law isn't making it harder, its keeping out the people who want to come here and ride the government boob forever.
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Post by sportsjock on Jun 23, 2017 7:48:46 GMT -5
Bottom line, for me, is I'm for following the law. I'm against making laws that make it hard for motivated, good, hard working people to to come to the land of opportunity and be successful. I've heard way more inspirational stories than criminal. I have a cousin who runs a landscaping company in southern Ohio. He employs immigrants (legal or not, I don't know). He mentioned, in passing, that he was moving. That weekend several whole families showed up, with food, and moved him. He didn't even ask. The older kids and wives even kept an eye on his young daughter. That's the kind of people we need more of to dilute the parasites our social democracy has created. My general experience with Mexican immigrants is, the vast majority of them are coming to America for a better way of life, for them, for their family. These people want to work and when they do find work, they are generally very hard and dedicated workers. They are family oriented, are a people of faith, wishing to assimilate into our society as contributing American's. We need to see that the good ones are given the opportunity to fulfill their dream and reject those that come here for more sinister pursuits and facilitate their hasty deportation.
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Post by galion on Jun 23, 2017 13:58:08 GMT -5
Trumps new law isn't making it harder, its keeping out the people who want to come here and ride the government boob forever. First it's not a law it's an executive order. Second, it hasn't taken effect yet as the courts have blocked much of it. The shortage of "illegal" workers has nothing to do with Trump. Net immigration in this country has essentially been zero for a few years now but since a democrat was in office it must have been a lie. Now that a republican is in office all of the sudden it's true. Trump wasn't in office last year when a shortage of workers left "millions of dollars of crops in the ground unharvested". How did this country ever survive when your ancestors came over here without greencards and visas? Surely there were no rapists, thieves, or murderers among them.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Jun 23, 2017 16:12:25 GMT -5
Leaving crops in the field is stupid. Many church youth groups will "glean" fields of crops for free and donate the produce to churches, the poor and food panties. If the farm owners in Willard aren't community minded, they could have found a wage that would have gotten the crops harvested. Ya gotta pay more than McDonalds. More than most people, migrant workers understand the Law of Supply and Demand. They go where they can get the best wage. They prefer to do the easier jobs for the same pay. They prefer not to move any further than necessary. If the muck farm owners in Willard are lacking in migrant workers it's there fault. You have to pay them more than what they get paid just across the borders in California, Arizona and Texas.
Just got back from my place on Lake Michigan, where fruit farming is a big part of the local economy. It's not time to harvest the first fruit, but the migrant workers have already arrived and waiting for the time to start picking. I was amazed at the trucks that some of them have. They're doing better than some manufacturing workers.
Two of my brothers worked with migrant workers a couple of summers in Michigan when going to college, they enjoyed them. They got to spend their summers in one of the most beautiful places in the country. They "picked" cherries. Meaning they picked them off a large tarp that was placed under a cherry tree before a "shaker" shook the tree. Well worth being in cooler Michigan, under a tree, right next to Lake Michigan and close to one of the great summer party cities in Traverse City. If you're a migrant worker wouldn't you rather be in cooler, scenic Michigan than work in the sun and humidity of the ''muck" of Willard? Also, you can't catch any salmon in Willard.
Obviously the farmers in Willard aren't paying enough to get them out of Michigan.
The person who wrote this article needs a reality check.
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Post by sportsjock on Jun 23, 2017 17:12:50 GMT -5
Like you said, it's a competitive industry and if the migrants go elsewhere, there's a reason. Little sympathy for them and when there's blame to be passed, it goes no further than those farmers claiming to be unfairly victimized.
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Post by galion on Jun 24, 2017 20:12:46 GMT -5
I promise you will all be singing a different tune if migrant workers go away along with the government subsidies designed to artificially keep your food prices down. If the free market actually did set the price of food , given the wealth distribution in this country, there literally would be rioting in the streets.
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Post by Rambo McClain on Jun 24, 2017 20:47:19 GMT -5
^^^clueless. The price would barely go up if you doubled the workers pay. The cost of direct labor is a small part of the price of goods. Owners just like to pay workers little because whatever they save in direct labor goes into their pockets.
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