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Post by sportsjock on Jul 22, 2017 12:52:32 GMT -5
Not sure you can show any proof of illegal alien doctors practicing medicine in the United States. There are however, med students coming from Latin American countries, but they need to have the proper legal papers for certification, when that time comes. Some of our finest and most respected doctors hail from India and Asian origin.
Don't know that field workers are putting any 'Americans' out of work, when this segment of the produce industry has been coming here for dozens of generations. Essentially, field workers have always been migrant laborers and they are good at what they do. The only way illegals are lowering wages is among the element of shady construction & industrial companies, willing to take the risk getting caught in their illegal activities. Executives and CEO's running those kinds of operations are fully aware they are at risk for eventual indictment or prosecution. Legitimate companies don't go down that path and in most cases, are most likely unionized as well.
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Post by galion on Jul 23, 2017 3:36:34 GMT -5
They're not putting anybody out of work. This is where we disagree. If illegals are working they are displacing legal workers and depressing the wages of all workers in that segment of the workforce. If illegals aren't working, they are most likely living off the government or crime. There aren't many rich illegal immigrants. I could touch on many things here including the understated unemployment and under-employment rates, the depression of wages and the angling of corporations to have abundant cheap labor. But all we really need to consider is the law of supply and demand. Labor adheres to this law. If the demand for labor is steady and the supply increase, then the price for labor will decline. The price for labor is wages. A business will not pay $15 per hour if there is ample supply of labor at $12 per hour. The U.S. is a high wage, high standard of living country compared to much of the world. If we refuse to control our borders and allow the hiring of illegals, we are essentially permitting an unlimited supply of labor. There are hundreds of millions of people around the world who would gladly work for $10 per hour in the US. That would be an huge increase in their standard of living. There are natural(births) and controlled(legal immigration) ways our labor force increases. Illegal immigration is an uncontrolled increase in the labor supply that no modern country has seen fit to allow. Illegal immigration must increase the labor supply. Therefore it must: A) Displace legal job seekers. B) Depress the wages(price of labor) of the jobs being sought by illegals and legals alike. You want the argument for "open borders"? You just made it buddy. If they don't have to work under the radar then the people who hire them can't depress the wages.
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Post by sportsjock on Jul 23, 2017 7:27:01 GMT -5
This is where we disagree. If illegals are working they are displacing legal workers and depressing the wages of all workers in that segment of the workforce. If illegals aren't working, they are most likely living off the government or crime. There aren't many rich illegal immigrants. I could touch on many things here including the understated unemployment and under-employment rates, the depression of wages and the angling of corporations to have abundant cheap labor. But all we really need to consider is the law of supply and demand. Labor adheres to this law. If the demand for labor is steady and the supply increase, then the price for labor will decline. The price for labor is wages. A business will not pay $15 per hour if there is ample supply of labor at $12 per hour. The U.S. is a high wage, high standard of living country compared to much of the world. If we refuse to control our borders and allow the hiring of illegals, we are essentially permitting an unlimited supply of labor. There are hundreds of millions of people around the world who would gladly work for $10 per hour in the US. That would be an huge increase in their standard of living. There are natural(births) and controlled(legal immigration) ways our labor force increases. Illegal immigration is an uncontrolled increase in the labor supply that no modern country has seen fit to allow. Illegal immigration must increase the labor supply. Therefore it must: A) Displace legal job seekers. B) Depress the wages(price of labor) of the jobs being sought by illegals and legals alike. You want the argument for "open borders"? You just made it buddy. If they don't have to work under the radar then the people who hire them can't depress the wages. I'm sorry, but this is a bit breathtaking. How does our national security get lost in all this? Somehow, advocates for 'undocumented immigrants' (illegal aliens) lose all perspective on the massive invasion across our southern border, trampling on our nations sovereignty, our laws and our very way of life! And your main concern is wages?..........huh?
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Post by galion on Jul 23, 2017 9:37:50 GMT -5
Up until recently this has been our law and way of life. National security. You literally have to be joking. Please show me the terrorist activities that have been done to this country by undocumented immigrants. Last time I checked they have all been committed by those who were here on visas or homegrown. Our president is literally bought and paid for by Russia and one of the most brutal dictators on the planet and you're worried about a few migrant workers.
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Post by DrTorch on Jul 23, 2017 12:46:57 GMT -5
This is where we disagree. If illegals are working they are displacing legal workers and depressing the wages of all workers in that segment of the workforce. If illegals aren't working, they are most likely living off the government or crime. There aren't many rich illegal immigrants. I could touch on many things here including the understated unemployment and under-employment rates, the depression of wages and the angling of corporations to have abundant cheap labor. But all we really need to consider is the law of supply and demand. Labor adheres to this law. If the demand for labor is steady and the supply increase, then the price for labor will decline. The price for labor is wages. A business will not pay $15 per hour if there is ample supply of labor at $12 per hour. The U.S. is a high wage, high standard of living country compared to much of the world. If we refuse to control our borders and allow the hiring of illegals, we are essentially permitting an unlimited supply of labor. There are hundreds of millions of people around the world who would gladly work for $10 per hour in the US. That would be an huge increase in their standard of living. There are natural(births) and controlled(legal immigration) ways our labor force increases. Illegal immigration is an uncontrolled increase in the labor supply that no modern country has seen fit to allow. Illegal immigration must increase the labor supply. Therefore it must: A) Displace legal job seekers. B) Depress the wages(price of labor) of the jobs being sought by illegals and legals alike. You want the argument for "open borders"? You just made it buddy. If they don't have to work under the radar then the people who hire them can't depress the wages. careful, logic like that will blow minds here sportsjock is invoking the Mythical Mexican Jihadi featuring Osama Bin Ortega and Hassan Manuel Palamino rofl, careful boys, Agave Akbar!
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Post by DrTorch on Jul 23, 2017 12:47:41 GMT -5
after pointing out that all Mexicans are apparently 1/4 Spanish and therefor white
l freaking love this place
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Post by sportsjock on Jul 23, 2017 13:39:49 GMT -5
after pointing out that all Mexicans are apparently 1/4 Spanish and therefor white l freaking love this place I didn't say white, rather they are of the same race.....Caucasian. I also did not say 'all Mexicans are apparently 1/4 Spanish and therefore white'......not what I said at all.
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Post by sportsjock on Jul 23, 2017 13:48:19 GMT -5
Up until recently this has been our law and way of life. National security. You literally have to be joking. Please show me the terrorist activities that have been done to this country by undocumented immigrants. Last time I checked they have all been committed by those who were here on visas or homegrown. Our president is literally bought and paid for by Russia and one of the most brutal dictators on the planet and you're worried about a few migrant workers. A high percentage of young, illegals spread terror throughout our cities, each and every day. MS13 is a massive threat to the safety of the general public and instrumental in the rising organized crime rate among inner city ethnics. It is common knowledge, the Mexican drug cartels have moved across our borders and operating organized networks. The slaughtering, butchering and executions of thousands of Mexicans (in Mexico) each year is terrorism by anyone's standards. Our president is 'bought and paid for by the Russians'? Really? Where are you getting your 'facts'? Fake news? Contrary to the fake news story line, Trump has initiated policies contrary to Russian interests and wishes.
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Post by Whittaker on Jul 23, 2017 15:28:43 GMT -5
This is where we disagree. If illegals are working they are displacing legal workers and depressing the wages of all workers in that segment of the workforce. If illegals aren't working, they are most likely living off the government or crime. There aren't many rich illegal immigrants. I could touch on many things here including the understated unemployment and under-employment rates, the depression of wages and the angling of corporations to have abundant cheap labor. But all we really need to consider is the law of supply and demand. Labor adheres to this law. If the demand for labor is steady and the supply increase, then the price for labor will decline. The price for labor is wages. A business will not pay $15 per hour if there is ample supply of labor at $12 per hour. The U.S. is a high wage, high standard of living country compared to much of the world. If we refuse to control our borders and allow the hiring of illegals, we are essentially permitting an unlimited supply of labor. There are hundreds of millions of people around the world who would gladly work for $10 per hour in the US. That would be an huge increase in their standard of living. There are natural(births) and controlled(legal immigration) ways our labor force increases. Illegal immigration is an uncontrolled increase in the labor supply that no modern country has seen fit to allow. Illegal immigration must increase the labor supply. Therefore it must: A) Displace legal job seekers. B) Depress the wages(price of labor) of the jobs being sought by illegals and legals alike. You want the argument for "open borders"? You just made it buddy. If they don't have to work under the radar then the people who hire them can't depress the wages .
I can make it bigger and I can make is bolder but I don't know how else to explain it. Maybe someone else can explain the law of supply and demand and how it affects wages.
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Post by galion on Jul 23, 2017 18:16:50 GMT -5
Your argument was that that wages are suppressed by illegal immigrants. I simply responded by pointing out that if they weren't "illegal" then the people who hired them couldn't suppress their wages and would be forced to comply by the same laws that govern them hiring you or me. So therefore if hiring immigrants was no longer "cheaper" than hiring the red blooded Americans that you all claim are out there wanting these jobs they would A) no longer be displacing legal job seekers or B) no longer depressing the wages for said jobs.
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Post by galion on Jul 23, 2017 18:25:58 GMT -5
Up until recently this has been our law and way of life. National security. You literally have to be joking. Please show me the terrorist activities that have been done to this country by undocumented immigrants. Last time I checked they have all been committed by those who were here on visas or homegrown. Our president is literally bought and paid for by Russia and one of the most brutal dictators on the planet and you're worried about a few migrant workers. A high percentage of young, illegals spread terror throughout our cities, each and every day. MS13 is a massive threat to the safety of the general public and instrumental in the rising organized crime rate among inner city ethnics. It is common knowledge, the Mexican drug cartels have moved across our borders and operating organized networks. The slaughtering, butchering and executions of thousands of Mexicans (in Mexico) each year is terrorism by anyone's standards. Our president is 'bought and paid for by the Russians'? Really? Where are you getting your 'facts'? Fake news? Contrary to the fake news story line, Trump has initiated policies contrary to Russian interests and wishes. So are you concerned about terrorism or the drug trade? I'm sorry to inform you that the drug trade is not going anywhere so long as we have communities full of drug users like Willard or Galion. You aren't fixing the drug trade issue without first fixing the drug demand issue. So far as this president goes explain to me why he's investigating how to pardon his buddies preemptively. Even Fox has reported that.
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Post by fanofthegame on Jul 23, 2017 22:12:05 GMT -5
Your argument was that that wages are suppressed by illegal immigrants. I simply responded by pointing out that if they weren't "illegal" then the people who hired them couldn't suppress their wages and would be forced to comply by the same laws that govern them hiring you or me. So therefore if hiring immigrants was no longer "cheaper" than hiring the red blooded Americans that you all claim are out there wanting these jobs they would A) no longer be displacing legal job seekers or B) no longer depressing the wages for said jobs. Current US citizens + illegals made legal/open borders = more supply If demand stays the same with the above mentioned increase in supply then price (wages) go down. I'm still not sure where I fall in this debate, but I have to point out flaws in logic.
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Post by galion on Jul 23, 2017 22:35:53 GMT -5
If the illegals already here become legals how does that increase supply? They're already here and working. Are you expecting another wave to come? Also, if they are making more money then they will spend more money, which last I checked is still a win.
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Post by Whittaker on Jul 23, 2017 23:42:43 GMT -5
If we reward illegal immigration we will absolutely get much more of it.
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Post by fanofthegame on Jul 24, 2017 5:07:47 GMT -5
If the illegals already here become legals how does that increase supply? They're already here and working. Are you expecting another wave to come? Also, if they are making more money then they will spend more money, which last I checked is still a win. You advocated an open border in your argument. There will be more.
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Post by tommygunn on Jul 24, 2017 7:32:08 GMT -5
Music I understand what you and everyone else says about him becoming legalized BUT look at his side of the deal. He went to and never missed an appointment at the immigration office to obtain his legal work permit. It was only this year after the previous 10+ that he was told he was being deported. He thought he was doing everything right by going to Cleveland,obtaining his work visa and reporting back to Cleveland when asked to get another work visa. I'm sure after the fact he wishes he would have worked towards citizenship but I'm also guessing he thought he was doing things properly. Wrong, he was told 5-6 years ago that he was going to be deported and got a pass. That right there should have lit a fire under his butt to look into becoming legal but no, he decided to roll the dice and he crapped out. His fault, not mine or anyone who supports following the laws of the land.
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Post by tommygunn on Jul 24, 2017 7:35:43 GMT -5
I guess these illegal supporters never heard of MS 13. Illegals are killing and committing crime daily. Liberal response, well so are legal Americans. So their logic is because legal Americans commit crime, we should just let anyone in our country aka open borders, to do whatever they want. Horrible brainwashed logic.
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Post by sportsjock on Jul 24, 2017 15:53:19 GMT -5
Fortunately, geographics and logistics have delayed the mass migration of 'refugees' to the U.S. as we have witnessed in Europe. We have the rare opportunity to see the cultural devastation taking place in Europian countries by millions of Muslims, most of whom will never recover. Their countries will never be the same. We have the rare opportunity to acknowledge the bad policies of open borders by well meaning and compassionate leaders of these countries and protect our nation from falling into the same trap. Liberals are either incredibly ignorant, or flat don't give a damn about our nations future fate.
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Post by dirkadirka on Jul 24, 2017 19:47:19 GMT -5
The key words are temporary work for 6-7 months......non-story. Would be interesting to know the rest of the omitted facts; how many non-foreign workers are on staff? I think it's absolutely related to to what we're talking about here, as these are jobs that Americans could have taken. I have no doubt they use foreigners to keep costs down. Cedar Point does the same thing...
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Post by sportsjock on Jul 25, 2017 0:08:25 GMT -5
The key words are temporary work for 6-7 months......non-story. Would be interesting to know the rest of the omitted facts; how many non-foreign workers are on staff? I think it's absolutely related to to what we're talking about here, as these are jobs that Americans could have taken. I have no doubt they use foreigners to keep costs down. Cedar Point does the same thing... And, most of those 'foreigners' are students at area colleges, been their practice since their early existence.
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Post by galion on Jul 25, 2017 0:21:37 GMT -5
Actually I've had children who worked there recently. The college students are typically area kids. The foreigners are actually foreigners.
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Post by sportsjock on Jul 25, 2017 6:09:35 GMT -5
Actually I've had children who worked there recently. The college students are typically area kids. The foreigners are actually foreigners. You are correct, foreigners are actually foreigners. Cedar Point employs summer help, with priority given to students at local universities, many of who are from countries of foreign origin. Glad we agree.
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Post by Rambo McClain on Jul 25, 2017 10:07:05 GMT -5
When Americans want cheep labor for cotton picking then we pack our workers into ships and some of them die on the way. 1717 AD When Americans want cheap veggies then we pack our workers into semi-trailers and some of them die on the way. 2017 AD
Americans like their cheap clothes, slave labor is a must otherwise millions of Americans couldn't afford clothes. Americans like their cheap veggies, illegal labor is a must otherwise millions of obese Americans couldn't afford the veggies they aren't buying anyways.
Americans will not do construction work - We need those illegals Americans will not do factory work - We need those illegals Americans will not pick veggies - We need those illegals Americans will not pick that cotton - We need those slaves
In 2017 America deports an illegal factory worker. Slave/Illegal lovers go bonkers and say he didn't take an American's job and he certainly wasn't part of lowering wages. He took that $10/hr job because American's won't work in a factory. Maybe Willard is ahead of the curve, maybe Clyde should pay factory workers $10/hr and then say they need illegals because American's just won't do factory work. We all need to wash our clothes and if we pay Americans what Americans want then nobody could wash their clothes in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 10:57:44 GMT -5
In 2017 America deports an illegal factory worker. Slave/Illegal lovers go bonkers and say he didn't take an American's job and he certainly wasn't part of lowering wages. He took that $10/hr job because American's won't work in a factory. Maybe Willard is ahead of the curve, maybe Clyde should pay factory workers $10/hr and then say they need illegals because American's just won't do factory work. We all need to wash our clothes and if we pay Americans what Americans want then nobody could wash their clothes in the future. You have this mentality that you deserve a good job because you're an American, it's the same stupid mentality most union people have. The only people who deserve good jobs are those who have put in the work to get a good job and continue to put in good work at that job, where he or she was born shouldn't be a factor.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 11:21:58 GMT -5
Actually I've had children who worked there recently. The college students are typically area kids. The foreigners are actually foreigners. You are correct, foreigners are actually foreigners. Cedar Point employs summer help, with priority given to students at local universities, many of who are from countries of foreign origin. Glad we agree. Some of those foreigners are college kids from other countries who can gain credits by working those jobs.
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Post by sportsjock on Jul 25, 2017 11:55:37 GMT -5
You are correct, foreigners are actually foreigners. Cedar Point employs summer help, with priority given to students at local universities, many of who are from countries of foreign origin. Glad we agree. Some of those foreigners are college kids from other countries who can gain credits by working those jobs. Exactly....... And that goes both ways, I have family members who studied at universities in Heidelberg, Germany and Seville, Spain. They held jobs while conducting their studies.
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Post by Rambo McClain on Jul 25, 2017 12:25:03 GMT -5
In 2017 America deports an illegal factory worker. Slave/Illegal lovers go bonkers and say he didn't take an American's job and he certainly wasn't part of lowering wages. He took that $10/hr job because American's won't work in a factory. Maybe Willard is ahead of the curve, maybe Clyde should pay factory workers $10/hr and then say they need illegals because American's just won't do factory work. We all need to wash our clothes and if we pay Americans what Americans want then nobody could wash their clothes in the future. You have this mentality that you deserve a good job because you're an American, it's the same stupid mentality most union people have. The only people who deserve good jobs are those who have put in the work to get a good job and continue to put in good work at that job, where he or she was born shouldn't be a factor. So making a livable wage is too good of a job and half of America should make unlivable wages? The AVERAGE American makes 52K a year. 50% make more, 50% make less. I hope you aren't so naive that you think everyone is smart enough to be a Doctor. I also hope you are not so naive that you think if everyone went on to gain a degree in Medicine that there are enough jobs to employee 300 million Doctors with 0 workers in any other field. Someone needs to pick up the trash Someone needs to deliver mail/packages Someone needs to construct buildings Someone needs to repair roads Someone needs to do electrical work Someone needs to do plumbing Someone needs to cut trees etc 50% of people have an IQ over 100 50% of people have an IQ below 100 I find it interesting that the people with an IQ of 110 look so down on Americans with an IQ of 90 and tell them it's their fault they don't have a PHD in Rocket Science and therefore an illegal should be able to take their job by undercutting them in wages. So a guy with a 90 IQ that has been getting up at 2 AM for the past 15 years to pick up trash and does a great job, should LOSE his job because you think ILLEGALS should be able to undercut his pay and take his job. How dare Mr. 90 IQ get paid 34K a year to pick up trash, let the illegal get paid 20K. Maybe Mr. 90 IQ should have gotten a good degree. With such a low IQ he doesn't deserve to make 34K, he should only get 20K or less. :rolleyes at you: Maybe the ILLEGALS should stay in their OWN countries and make those countries better.
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Post by Rambo McClain on Jul 25, 2017 12:44:37 GMT -5
52,000 a year - What the Average American makes 34,000 a year - What the average Garbage man makes 41,000,000 a year - What the CEO of Aetna makes a year
It would take the Average American 788 years to make what the CEO of Aetna makes in a single year. Estimate that the average person works 50 years in their life (18-68). The Average American would just need to work 16 different lifetimes to make what the CEO of Aetna makes in a single year. How dare an American make 52K a year and cry if an illegal is trying to undercut them and take them down to 30K a year.
Medical costs too high? It must be the 90 IQ guy complaining about illegals undercutting his pay in construction, it has nothing to do with what CEO's make in the Medical Field. Those CEO's earned their money because they received a Masters in college. Explain again all the amazing things the current CEO's in the Medical Field have done? I know what Bill Gates has done for society, he earned his BILLIONS, I know what Steve Jobbs has done for society, he earned his BILLIONS, but explain all the amazing things that these Medical CEO's have done to earn their money?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 12:49:46 GMT -5
Some of those foreigners are college kids from other countries who can gain credits by working those jobs. Exactly....... And that goes both ways, I have family members who studied at universities in Heidelberg, Germany and Seville, Spain. They held jobs while conducting their studies. I was referring to some South American Universities that offer their students to travel to the states to work for a short period and gain college credits. They are not students attending our schools.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 13:02:31 GMT -5
but explain all the amazing things that these Medical CEO's have done to earn their money? They make more money for the shareholders.
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