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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 16, 2017 17:24:31 GMT -5
I've lived my entire life (46 years) watching the US move, on the whole, in the right direction UNTIL the Obama and Trump presidencies. The only thing I can see they have in common is that they are further toward the extremes of their respective ideologies. I blame the media a lot because pitting extremes against each other makes for more entertaining, Roman colosseum style news. Shame on them and shame on us for swallowing it. We need to recognize our similarities more than our differences.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 16, 2017 17:27:08 GMT -5
I'm going to call BS when both sides spew it. I call BS on this. Conventional wisdom says this act was about power not sex. Clinton clearly was in a position of power and authority. If she had not "consented" would she still have her position? Could the POTUS have ruined her? Maybe she wanted it. Maybe she wanted her job. Human Resources 101. When my dog jumps up on the counter and steals a burger that is bad. Murder is bad. My dog jumping up on the counter is murder. Fire trucks are red. The apple is red. The apple is a fire truck. So, you're saying it's ok for the boss to have relations with his subordinate? What if the sub wants to end the relationship and the boss doesn't. Power is power. Physical, psychological, financial. It can all be wielded.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 17:32:51 GMT -5
I've lived my entire life (46 years) watching the US move, on the whole, in the right direction UNTIL the Obama and Trump presidencies. The only thing I can see they have in common is that they are further toward the extremes of their respective ideologies. I blame the media a lot because pitting extremes against each other makes for more entertaining, Roman colosseum style news. Shame on them and shame on us for swallowing it. We need to recognize our similarities more than our differences. I 100% agree this country is going in the wrong direction and the media is out of control. People in general are rude and self absorbed, it's really sad. When my dog jumps up on the counter and steals a burger that is bad. Murder is bad. My dog jumping up on the counter is murder. Fire trucks are red. The apple is red. The apple is a fire truck. So, you're saying it's ok for the boss to have relations with his subordinate? What if the sub wants to end the relationship and the boss doesn't. Power is power. Physical, psychological, financial. It can all be wielded. Absolutely not. I would never cheat on my wife and if I was single, I would never have a relationship with someone I supervisor. It's unethical and a good way to expose yourself to a lawsuit for all the reasons you stated. With that said, admitting to sexually assaulting random women is in a whole different league.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 16, 2017 17:38:29 GMT -5
Agreed. Different points on the same spectrum. Both disgusting and destructive. I know someone personally who was psychologically coerced into having sex and she bears every emotional scar as someone physically forced. I can't argue, though, that on an emotional level one is more disturbing.
My point is if we're going to move in the right direction toward mutual understanding we can't choose when a position suits us and when it doesn't. Trump is a pig and I'm disturbed he's the POTUS. Clinton used his power for evil, too. You can't put them on opposite sides of the argument to suit you.
You acknowledge what he did was wrong and I acknowledge what Trump did was worse and we find common ground. The world is now a better place 😜 .
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Post by galion on Aug 16, 2017 17:56:25 GMT -5
How ironic, the party that lead the fight to abolish slavery now wants to bring it back. I'm just curious how "good people" could justify attending a rally where "extremists" were yelling racist chants and the like as if there was any other reason for them to be there. That's a totally ridiculous accusation and statement.I don't care what side of the issue one might be on, not a wise decision to be attending such an event, that has a high probability of violent clashes. Personally, I think the historical statues should be left alone. It's not a statue of the grand dragon of the ku klux klan, but one of this countries great generals. He wasn't one of THIS country's great generals. Surely they taught you that at some point during your schooling.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 16, 2017 18:01:29 GMT -5
Destroying a piece of history because its distasteful is bad. We lose it.
Removing it from an area of prominence out of respect for the people that history oppressed is an outstanding idea.
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 16, 2017 18:16:03 GMT -5
That's a totally ridiculous accusation and statement.I don't care what side of the issue one might be on, not a wise decision to be attending such an event, that has a high probability of violent clashes. Personally, I think the historical statues should be left alone. It's not a statue of the grand dragon of the ku klux klan, but one of this countries great generals. He wasn't one of THIS country's great generals. Surely they taught you that at some point during your schooling. Obviously, American History was not one of your strong subjects.
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Post by Whittaker on Aug 16, 2017 19:41:29 GMT -5
Destroying a piece of history because its distasteful is bad. We lose it. Removing it from an area of prominence out of respect for the people that history oppressed is an outstanding idea. This.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 21:46:55 GMT -5
So people are bringing up Bill Clinton, who hasn't been president in 17 years, as their contrast to Trump? Am I wrong in saying that? Hell why not use Kennedy while we are at it? Let's just call aspade a spade...if you voted for Trump you are going to find some way to defend him. If you voted for Hilary you are going to find some way to criticize him. Or if you are like me who voted for neither you are going to sit back and laugh at the absurd arguments. Obama never once used race while president for anything. If you can find something that says otherwise please show us. Obamacare is freaking joke and I think even most of the left agrees. Trump worries way to much about the media. His ego may just be to big for this job. The left wing media are going to criticize you, get over it. It was the same with the right wing media criticizing Obama every day. Start moving forward with your policy Trump that you promised and stop worrying about what's being said you on CNN and MSNBC
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Post by galion on Aug 17, 2017 2:55:36 GMT -5
He wasn't one of THIS country's great generals. Surely they taught you that at some point during your schooling. Obviously, American History was not one of your strong subjects. Clearly not one of yours. Robert E. Lee never rose above the rank of Colonel in the US army.
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Post by galion on Aug 17, 2017 3:13:51 GMT -5
3 hours ago Rambo McClain said: "A Nazi drove his car into a crowd of people, he's a murderer and should be put away for life" I think there was enough hate thrown around from both sides that day, the resulting trajic disaster was inevitable. Most people don't have the facts straight, nor did the media report the facts of the vehicular assault. The kid was driving at a high rate of speed and rear-ended a car in front of him and that car he struck, in turn, ran over the unfortunate victim. Watch the video. This is not to say he didn't have total intent to inflict great bodily harm on the demonstrators. Far too many radical organizations and hate groups in our society and when they arrive at the same venue, violence is a given. At what point is it "radical" to protest against racism and hatred? It's OK to protest at a gay pride parade. It's OK to protest against women's rights. But if you show up to protest against evil then apparently you're a radical and just as prone to violence as they are. We need to completely rewrite history now. Poland must now accept half the responsibility for Germany invading them. After all it's their fault for being Germany's neighbor. They should have known better and moved. They must have been radicals for staying. The Jews must now accept half the blame for the Holocaust. After all, they knew how violent the Nazis were. They must have been radicals for staying. The blacks who were lynched by the KKK and the like need to accept half the blame for getting lynched. After all, they knew how violent the KKK was. They must have been radicals for staying. Yes, violence is a given when you are dealing with hate groups. But to call someone a radical and try to draw a false equivalency between the hate groups and those protesting them is an absolute insult to this country and everything that we are supposed to stand for. As far as anybody who attempts to make that argument goes, it leaves little doubt as to where their loyalties lie and what their point of view actually is.
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Post by Buckeye2b on Aug 17, 2017 13:34:04 GMT -5
The only problem with that statement Galion is that opposing groups don't show up to protest. They show up for the fight. Once either group erupts in violence, it's no longer a protest but rather a skirmish. I hate to say it, but when a group shows up to protest against a hate group, you simply give them more power. I don't belong to any type of organization that advocates any type of strong dislike or hate for any other group (well, except the Buckeye nation and michigan... ) Still, I don't know that I would actually show up to protest a group like the KKK because I find them to be not only offensive, but I think the attention empowers their cause and makes them stronger. There are only two ways to make them ineffective as a group.... kick their *** to make them irrelevant and maybe scared or ignore them (which still makes them irrelevant.)
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 17, 2017 14:43:21 GMT -5
The only problem with that statement Galion is that opposing groups don't show up to protest. They show up for the fight. Once either group erupts in violence, it's no longer a protest but rather a skirmish. I hate to say it, but when a group shows up to protest against a hate group, you simply give them more power. I don't belong to any type of organization that advocates any type of strong dislike or hate for any other group (well, except the Buckeye nation and michigan... ) Still, I don't know that I would actually show up to protest a group like the KKK because I find them to be not only offensive, but I think the attention empowers their cause and makes them stronger. There are only two ways to make them ineffective as a group.... kick their jack wagon to make them irrelevant and maybe scared or ignore them (which still makes them irrelevant.) I couldn't agree with you more and I am like you, I would never, never be part of any organization that advocates hate towards others, no matter how much I might disagree with what they may stand for. It is increasingly apparent the counter protesters had little peaceful intent in mind. Bags of urine were being tossed at the neo-nazi's, the white supremacists and law enforcement and physical encounters and confrontations de-legitimized their previously advertised intent. Personally, I wouldn't give you two cents or an ounce of credibility to any of the radicals in attendance that day from both sides of the spectrum. There is a lot of blame to throw around, but my thoughts are focused on local authorities who granted the permits for all those whackos to use their community as a stage for their off the wall viewpoints. They had to know the resulting chaos was inevitable. I would have flatly rejected the permit, not in my community....take it somewhere else.
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Post by galion on Aug 17, 2017 14:50:29 GMT -5
I was always taught as a kid that in order top stop a bully you need to stand up to them. There is also an old saying that "silence implies consent." If you do nothing it just emboldens them.
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 17, 2017 15:06:39 GMT -5
I was always taught as a kid that in order top stop a bully you need to stand up to them. There is also an old saying that "silence implies consent." If you do nothing it just emboldens them. I agree with your point Galion, but that was us in our youth. I know what you are saying, but you know as well as I, nothing good can come from confronting neo-nazi's or organizations of their ilk. For me, the Westboro Baptist Church protesting near funerals of our fallen veterans is the most disgusting of radical groups. Until recently, they have been met with all too polite resistance. Finally, someone came up with some clever ideas to isolate them from mourners. The best of which is pulling up semi trailers and parking them in the street to block off their view of the funeral services.
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Post by Buckeye2b on Aug 17, 2017 19:18:15 GMT -5
I was always taught as a kid that in order top stop a bully you need to stand up to them. There is also an old saying that "silence implies consent." If you do nothing it just emboldens them. I think there is truth to that, especially in a one on one fight where you can get in their head by kicking their ***. However, when talking about hate groups, you are in a different psychological mentality....in a group of any type for that matter. in the group mentality, people feed off of others, and so bringing two hate groups together just doesn't make any sense. If you put that small group of neo-Nazis and give them the location and their constitutional right to assemble, then you have met your public official requirement. So they assemble and spout off about their ideologies, but if no one can hear them, what do they accomplish? It's kind of like a tree in the forest. If it falls and no one hears it, did it really make noise? Give them a location zoned anti-noise and shut them down with tickets when they get too loud...give them a location where they can be zoned off from the public by police... If they have their rally, and no one can hear them, did they really meet and will anyone outside of their inane little group care? Just a thought...
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Post by galion on Aug 18, 2017 2:42:52 GMT -5
Here's the thing, they have a constitutional right to assembly just like everyone else. You can talk about denying permits and the like all you want but they have proven time and again that they are willing to go to court to get them if need be. If they fill out the proper paperwork to assemble in a public place you must let them. Also, who is the 2nd hate group you are referring to? Surely the protesters aren't considered a hate group are they?
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 18, 2017 7:55:19 GMT -5
Here's the thing, they have a constitutional right to assembly just like everyone else. You can talk about denying permits and the like all you want but they have proven time and again that they are willing to go to court to get them if need be. If they fill out the proper paperwork to assemble in a public place you must let them. Also, who is the 2nd hate group you are referring to? Surely the protesters aren't considered a hate group are they? Permits are denied all the time by communities all across America. There was an article about several communities that denied permits to white nationalist applicants, requesting a permit to conduct a public demonstration, soon after the debacle at Charlottesville. Public safety is a main concern and priority when denying such a request. Unfortunately, when one group applies for the 'right' to public demonstration, the news quickly spreads and every radical group imaginable shows up, ready for a fight. The left was well represented by a gamut of radical organizers, the most prominent of which was ANTIVA and Black Lives Matter. Groups representing both sides showed up brandishing clubs, pepper spray and in this case bags of urine, rocks and bricks, intent on a physical confrontation. The entire scenario was a giant powderkeg.
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Post by DrTorch on Aug 18, 2017 10:19:37 GMT -5
i do think it is a shame that there doesn't seem to be a forum for rural white folks, who genuinely feel that their culture is under attack (and let's be honest, rightly or wrongly it is under attack) to speak where their efforts aren't undermined by hanger-on skinheads/hate groups and also violent protesters from the left
those folks have no voice in the mainstream press, and that is why you get Donald Trump as President in one of the greatest backlash elections ever...because, keeping with the honest theme, Obama and Pelosi are also why we have Donald Trump as President
i think it is great to celebrate other cultures and diversity, and i lived in a small rural town where it was 95% white and truth be told again, it ain't all that, i'd rather live where there is a little color in the rainbow but i'm not here to proselytize...however there is a culture that is being wiped off the face of the Earth, in part due to their own making, but one whose death-silence in the media and world at large is a little disturbing
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 11:17:44 GMT -5
Here's the thing, they have a constitutional right to assembly just like everyone else. And they really shouldn't. I think it's a misreading of the first amendment to protect hate speech.
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Post by sportsjock on Aug 18, 2017 12:26:46 GMT -5
Here's the thing, they have a constitutional right to assembly just like everyone else. And they really shouldn't. I think it's a misreading of the first amendment to protect hate speech. Hate speech in any form......
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 18, 2017 15:55:28 GMT -5
i do think it is a shame that there doesn't seem to be a forum for rural white folks, who genuinely feel that their culture is under attack (and let's be honest, rightly or wrongly it is under attack) to speak where their efforts aren't undermined by hanger-on skinheads/hate groups and also violent protesters from the left those folks have no voice in the mainstream press, and that is why you get Donald Trump as President in one of the greatest backlash elections ever...because, keeping with the honest theme, Obama and Pelosi are also why we have Donald Trump as President i think it is great to celebrate other cultures and diversity, and i lived in a small rural town where it was 95% white and truth be told again, it ain't all that, i'd rather live where there is a little color in the rainbow but i'm not here to proselytize...however there is a culture that is being wiped off the face of the Earth, in part due to their own making, but one whose death-silence in the media and world at large is a little disturbing You'd appreciate a book called Hillbilly Eligy.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 18, 2017 15:56:04 GMT -5
Here's the thing, they have a constitutional right to assembly just like everyone else. And they really shouldn't. I think it's a misreading of the first amendment to protect hate speech. Who do you trust to set the standards?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 16:45:52 GMT -5
Here's the thing, they have a constitutional right to assembly just like everyone else. And they really shouldn't. I think it's a misreading of the first amendment to protect hate speech. Then people could say that the right to bare arms is misinterpreted, because it was for people to have muskets in the late 1700's. Not semi-automatic hand guns. The Bill of Rights will never be touched (amended)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 17:09:11 GMT -5
And they really shouldn't. I think it's a misreading of the first amendment to protect hate speech. Who do you trust to set the standards? Congress and the Supreme Court. If I can't just say myself...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 17:16:13 GMT -5
And they really shouldn't. I think it's a misreading of the first amendment to protect hate speech. Then people could say that the right to bare arms is misinterpreted, because it was for people to have muskets in the late 1700's. Not semi-automatic hand guns. The Bill of Rights will never be touched (amended) It already has been and is continued to be updated by case law.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 17:23:40 GMT -5
Then people could say that the right to bare arms is misinterpreted, because it was for people to have muskets in the late 1700's. Not semi-automatic hand guns. The Bill of Rights will never be touched (amended) It already has been and is continued to be updated by case law. that may but the Bill of Rights can not be changed
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 17:44:49 GMT -5
It already has been and is continued to be updated by case law. that may but the Bill of Rights can not be changed Yes, yes it can. It's interpretation has been updated with the times. Show me in the 4th amendment where it talks about vehicle searches or exigenct circumstances. Show me in the 1st anything close to protecting a bunch of rednecks from spewing hate: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petitition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Post by fanofthegame on Aug 18, 2017 18:40:03 GMT -5
Who do you trust to set the standards? Congress and the Supreme Court. If I can't just say myself... You have more faith than me. I think I'll leave it open even if the speech disturbs me because I don't want anyone else telling me what's right or wrong.
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Post by galion on Aug 19, 2017 13:16:13 GMT -5
I see Fox News is now referring to these racist hate groups under the umbrella of "white nationalists". I guess they aren't allowed to call all these fine people Nazis or skinheads or mention the klan anymore. David Duke must be getting ready for another senate run again. This is just as ridiculous as the left refusing to use the words "islamic terrorists".
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