EV purchase

[Buckeye2b]

I’m curious. Have any of you here purchased or consider purchasing an EV? I see that Lexus is advertising a true hybrid and advertising it as such. Electric for short trips and gas for long. Mind you, I’m not giving my Silverado up to sit in a yuppy Lexus (nor a BMW, Audi, or the like) but the marketing of an EV that may attract those of us who don’t particularly need or want an EV is interesting . The marketing of a true hybrid vehicle is going to be key, provided the cost doesn’t go over the top. I know the day will eventually come that petroleum will be finished, but it will be long after I’m dead and gone. However, I would consider something along this line where I can make a choice as a consumer.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[fanofthegame]

With current technology hybrids are the only thing that makes sense to me. You conserve energy by charging when you break/slow down. You aren’t tethered by range issues. You’ll never have to sit still for extended charging. The only downside is the more tech in a car the more that can go wrong and I bet repairs aren’t cheap.

[Whittaker]

We had a hybrid a few years ago. No complaints and very good gas milage. I think a hybrid or a plug-in hybrid makes alot of sense for alot of people. There really isn't any downside to the driving experience. In fact, most hybrids are faster out of the gate than their non-hybrid version

You pay a little more upfront and gain that money back and more over time through savings at the pump.

Here's the numbers on a Toyota Rav4 XLE.

Hybrid---------203hp-----40mpg-----$33,570
Non-hybrid-----219hp-----30mpg-----$30,820----difference-$2,750

100,000 miles @ 3.50 per gallon for hybrid--------$8,750
100,000 miles @ 3.50 per gallon for non-hybid----$11,667
Gas savings for hybrid---------------------------$2,950

It looks like the gas savings will recover the price difference in less than 100,000 miles.
If gas prices average over $3.50 during that time-frame, the break-even point will come sooner.

[fbfan]

www.caranddriver.com/features/a26390899/what-is-hybrid-car/

What you have to remember about non plug in hybrids is that ALL of the energy ultimately comes from fossil fuel. As Biden's war on fossil fuel continues, the cost to operate these hybrid cars will continue to go up, just as it will for 100% fossil fuel cars. Hybrids do seem to me, to be a logical next step in the evolution of the technology, if you can live with their shortcomings and limitations. A lot of people can't/won't. They're certainly a lot better option than the EV mandates being put forth by the current federal government, certain states, and some of the climate extremists.

From reading the article, there are a lot of systems and technology that could go wrong. You're local garage probably won't be able to work on them. All things considered, I probably won't buy one until they're a better economic choice, and RISK, the day I drive it off the lot.

[fbfan]

Sept 18, 2023 7:54:36 GMT -5 Whittaker said:

We had a hybrid a few years ago. No complaints and very good gas milage. I think a hybrid or a plug-in hybrid makes alot of sense for alot of people. There really isn't any downside to the driving experience. In fact, most hybrids are faster out of the gate than their non-hybrid version

You pay a little more upfront and gain that money back and more over time through savings at the pump.

Here's the numbers on a Toyota Rav4 XLE.

Hybrid---------203hp-----40mpg-----$33,570
Non-hybrid-----219hp-----30mpg-----$30,820----difference-$2,750

100,000 miles @ 3.50 per gallon for hybrid--------$8,750
100,000 miles @ 3.50 per gallon for non-hybid----$11,667
Gas savings for hybrid---------------------------$2,950

It looks like the gas savings will recover the price difference in less than 100,000 miles.
If gas prices average over $3.50 during that time-frame, the break-even point will come sooner.

Just wondering, your post says you "had" a hybrid, do you still have it? If not, why not? As your post says, it takes a while to get to the break even point.

[Whittaker]

Sept 22, 2023 10:57:54 GMT -5 fbfan said:

Sept 18, 2023 7:54:36 GMT -5 Whittaker said:

We had a hybrid a few years ago. No complaints and very good gas milage. I think a hybrid or a plug-in hybrid makes alot of sense for alot of people. There really isn't any downside to the driving experience. In fact, most hybrids are faster out of the gate than their non-hybrid version

You pay a little more upfront and gain that money back and more over time through savings at the pump.

Here's the numbers on a Toyota Rav4 XLE.

Hybrid---------203hp-----40mpg-----$33,570
Non-hybrid-----219hp-----30mpg-----$30,820----difference-$2,750

100,000 miles @ 3.50 per gallon for hybrid--------$8,750
100,000 miles @ 3.50 per gallon for non-hybid----$11,667
Gas savings for hybrid---------------------------$2,950

It looks like the gas savings will recover the price difference in less than 100,000 miles.
If gas prices average over $3.50 during that time-frame, the break-even point will come sooner.

Just wondering, your post says you "had" a hybrid, do you still have it? If not, why not? As your post says, it takes a while to get to the break even point.

My son rear-ended someone at 20-30 mph and crumpled the entire front end. Adjuster totaled the car.
Nobody was hurt except for some soreness. 
By that point I had pretty much given the car to my son and he chose to replace it with a Hyundai Elantra.

[fbfan]

Sept 23, 2023 22:09:05 GMT -5 Whittaker said:

Sept 22, 2023 10:57:54 GMT -5 fbfan said:

Just wondering, your post says you "had" a hybrid, do you still have it? If not, why not? As your post says, it takes a while to get to the break even point.

My son rear-ended someone at 20-30 mph and crumpled the entire front end. Adjuster totaled the car.
Nobody was hurt except for some soreness. 
By that point I had pretty much given the car to my son and he chose to replace it with a Hyundai Elantra.

Thanks for the response. It seems as if all cars now days are "totaled" for what used to be a repairable "fender bender". I think it will only get worse as we have more and more EV's on the road. Expensive and comparably fragile batteries and electronic systems will be a driving factor in that. 

[Whittaker]

I would be pretty leary of a full EV for several reasons...recharging availabiliy, battery longevity & cost, cold weather performance and problems with new technology.
But I think the hybrids and plug-in hybrids are pretty good, especially if you keep cars a longg time.

In the cost/benefit post I made above, I didn't factor in govt incentives which vary by state.

[Buckeye2b]

So I raised the question about hybrid cars, but government incentives? HUGE!!! I run a school transportation department, and the feds are putting monster incentives out there for schools to electrify.

First, years ago the EPA forced new diesel technology that reduces the soot particulate in a new diesel engine to near zero. This has been an ongoing process over the past 15 or so years. It's why you sometimes see a sign for DEF (Diesel Emission Fluid) at the truck stops where you might be getting gas (Pilot or the like.) The DEF is used in conjunction with a special ceramic filter in the exhaust system to knock the soot particulate down so low that the air in the newer diesel engines coming out is said to be cleaner that the air going in, and buses are a huge part of this new technology because so many are rooted in schools.

Now, with the advent of electric vehicles, the cost of the electric school bus has risen astronomically, like in the $300-$400K range. I'm a diesel guy from the word go and I won't be switching over to electric, but as I am told, in federal lottery programs (which I did not apply for,) the feds are covering the cost of the electric school bus so that the districts are not paying for the additional. In comparison, I am leasing brand new 2024 diesel buses as of this month, and the new cost of a stock model is $109,000. The federal programs are then making up that difference of an electric at $300K plus to get the price reduced to the conventional diesel bus cost. What a bargain...

I have a delivery guy (so he's a nobody in the company) from my bus leasing company who told me off the record that they have a few electric buses at the shop and they spend about 2/3 of their time in the shop being work on. Granted, there is no scientific correlation with what he's sharing, but just his observation. However, if the electric bus is that wonderful, don't you think even he would be on board???

Nope... I'll stick with my old diesel buses every day... 

[fanofthegame]

And a well maintained diesel runs forever. When I was a kid we pulled a Cummins diesel engine out of a truck we had. The chassis was shot. 1950’s ish era. We used it to run a pump that pulled water from a creek to irrigate farmland and that was through the late 80’s.

[Buckeye2b]

Yep...diesel is king because in part the engines run cooler than gasoline or propane. Damn things will run until hell freezes over.. And don't get me started on how much I prefer air brakes to hydraulics.....

LOL!!! 

[fanofthegame]

And at lower rpm’s.

[shelbyrr11]

Sept 22, 2023 10:46:25 GMT -5 fbfan said:

www.caranddriver.com/features/a26390899/what-is-hybrid-car/

What you have to remember about non plug in hybrids is that ALL of the energy ultimately comes from fossil fuel. As Biden's war on fossil fuel continues, the cost to operate these hybrid cars will continue to go up, just as it will for 100% fossil fuel cars. Hybrids do seem to me, to be a logical next step in the evolution of the technology, if you can live with their shortcomings and limitations. A lot of people can't/won't. They're certainly a lot better option than the EV mandates being put forth by the current federal government, certain states, and some of the climate extremists.

From reading the article, there are a lot of systems and technology that could go wrong. You're local garage probably won't be able to work on them. All things considered, I probably won't buy one until they're a better economic choice, and RISK, the day I drive it off the lot.

Not to discount the remaining points, because I do overall align with them, but I have to imagine there are some economies of scale when it comes to electricity being mass-produced with fossil fuels rather than a traditional combustion engine using fossil fuels. 

That is to say, I could see that less net fossil-fuels are used to produce electricity for 100k's worth of EV miles driven than what a combustion engine can do. I'm no power plant manager, but I don't see how we haven't scaled up our power plants to possess those efficiencies when producing electricity for entire regions. It's still fossil fuel consumption, but surely there could exist a net reduction in fossil fuel usage in that context. Of course, the CAPACITY of those power plants is a whole different matter, which comes into play when a ton of excess electricity demand comes via those EVs.

To that last point, I think there isn't a ton of harm in expanding capacity with alternative fuel methods. I wouldn't be rushing to take plants offline because they use coal, I'd be happy enough if a 10% increase in energy needs could be mostly met with alternative energies. Any fossil fuel plants we take offline ought to be due to sincere economic realities. 

Generally speaking, given the fact that a lot of fracking wells have been noted as containing much lower lifetime yields than forecasted on top of fresh geopolitical strife (hello Middle East/Russian oil futures), I do think there is a case to be made that any energy production that we can claim via our own resources such as wind/solar has an extra sprinkling of inherent value.