Week 6: River Valley (34) @ Ontario (0)

[BellevueBuckeye]

RV won 16-13 last year

[mrsteel]

RV-7
Ont-0 Half

RV scores just before end of half.

[mrsteel]

RV-14
Ont-0 end of 3rd

[mrsteel]

River Valley -34
Ontario -0 Final



Ontario was driving early in the second half and threw a pick 6 that went 70 yards. They folded up after that.

[heresjim]

In terms of talent, River Valley was not that much better than Ontario. In terms of actual effort, coaching, execution, discipline, and everything else... That is why the score was the way that it was.

No growth, no chemistry, no adjustments, just bad football.

[Willard Fillmore]

Ontario doesn't have a 6-3 215 running back. Ontario only has 3 decent players that weigh over 205. I don't know how many are good, but RV has 14 players that weigh over 205. Most of Ontario's defense is afraid to tackle. After the INT they quit.

No place to grow. Chemistry comes from team leaders. 100 adjustments could be made, they would be meaningless.

[heresjim]

Oct 4, 2019 22:43:52 GMT -5 Willard Fillmore said:

Ontario doesn't have a 6-3 215 running back. Ontario only has 3 decent players that weigh over 205. I don't know how many are good, but RV has 14 players that weigh over 205. Most of Ontario's defense is afraid to tackle. After the INT they quit.

No place to grow. Chemistry comes from team leaders. 100 adjustments could be made, they would be meaningless.

Ontario definitely has similar amounts of players as RV when it comes to kids over 205. You are correct that they are not good (though Ontario has had sub 205 players that contributed to the o/d line and backer positions before). They also may not have a 215 lbs running back, but they have enough speedy receivers out there that get separation frequently.

I'm surprised you say that there is no place for growth. Talent matters, yes, but you can always maximize the potential of your players by teaching them how to execute better. There were at least 6 turnovers last night before I left... and many were just from stupid throws made repeatedly. That can be avoided with proper coaching.

Tackling can be improved upon (unless you think it's some biologically determined skill that is absent from the team lol). Culture and chemistry can facilitated by the Coaches in order to create leaders and comraderie(and they have had the time to implement it). And if you don't try or practice making any adjustments, you are cutting down the probability of winning needlessly (and not even finding out what you actually do well). The score was 7-0 at half time, and we were moving the ball at times. This was not a game we had a 0% of winning.

Talent isn't going to overcome these types of deficiencies, especially if their supporting cast played like they did tonight. In fact, they probably will transfer somewhere else like many others have...

[Willard Fillmore]

Ontario only has 3 players over 205 worthy of contributing. The 200 and 205 players that must play on the D-line and O-line would be playing LB or DE if not for the paucity of quality size. RV had 6 or 8 over 205 contributing.

Ontario has a 5-7 QB, that has problems seeing over the O-line and D-line. How many of his passes were deflected? How many of his throws were off target due to poor vision? When behind and the defense knows you're going to throw every down and the WRs aren't getting separation, any average passer is going to throw INTs. When playing a spread and you have to roll the QB to help him see down field you eliminate half of your receivers.  

How do you know that "proper" coaching isn't being done? Could it not be that accepting the coaching isn't happening or the physical tools aren't there to successfully implement the techniques being taught?

Tackling will never improve if toughness isn't there. Be honest, there isn't much of that on this team. Toughness is innate, it can't be taught. You either like to hit or you don't. Heck when I played we had several defensive starters that were't allowed to practice live or passive, because they were injuring their teammates.

You're clueless. One can't practice "adjustments". By definition an adjustment means, you see something during a game, that wasn't seen on video and you have to "adjust" on the fly during a game or at halftime. It is impossible to "adjust" to lack of size and toughness.

WINNING "culture" in team sports comes when there has been many years of winning(7-3 or better in football) that players on varsity have experienced at lower levels and have seen on varsity teams of the past. LOSING is also a "culture". Great coaching of culture can be done when there is video of winning teams of the past making many great plays on offense and defense, that can be shown to current teams. I am quite certain there is no such video to be shown today. It is MUCH more difficult to change a losing culture to a winning culture than it is to maintain a winning culture. In football, changing a losing culture to a winning culture, FIRST there has to be 2 or 3 classes in a row that have good size, good athletes, toughness, good numbers and a disdain for losing.

I don't know what game you were watching. "Moving the ball at times" means more than around 50 yards in a half. Heck their first 2 possessions in the first half came deep in RV territory. I think they got 1 first down. If they had average abilities two TDs would've been scored. BTW, "moving the ball at times" NEVER wins football games

What deficiencies? Talent, size, and toughness with good coaching AFTER a losing culture has been over come equates to winning seasons.

Clueless again. There are NO "supporting casts" in football. ALL 11 players on offense AND defense are equally important. In basketball you can have 2 very good players and a "supporting cast" and will win. If 60% of your players in football are no more than a "supporting cast" you lose big time. That's close to describing what we see this year.  

[dude]

Oct 5, 2019 9:49:42 GMT -5 heresjim said:

Oct 4, 2019 22:43:52 GMT -5 Willard Fillmore said:

Ontario definitely has similar amounts of players as RV when it comes to kids over 205. You are correct that they are not good (though Ontario has had sub 205 players that contributed to the o/d line and backer positions before). They also may not have a 215 lbs running back, but they have enough speedy receivers out there that get separation frequently.

I'm surprised you say that there is no place for growth. Talent matters, yes, but you can always maximize the potential of your players by teaching them how to execute better. There were at least 6 turnovers last night before I left... and many were just from stupid throws made repeatedly. That can be avoided with proper coaching.

Tackling can be improved upon (unless you think it's some biologically determined skill that is absent from the team lol). Culture and chemistry can facilitated by the Coaches in order to create leaders and comraderie(and they have had the time to implement it). And if you don't try or practice making any adjustments, you are cutting down the probability of winning needlessly (and not even finding out what you actually do well). The score was 7-0 at half time, and we were moving the ball at times. This was not a game we had a 0% of winning.

Talent isn't going to overcome these types of deficiencies, especially if their supporting cast played like they did tonight. In fact, they probably will transfer somewhere else like many others have...

What is your coach's record? 

[heresjim]

Oct 5, 2019 13:19:08 GMT -5 Willard Fillmore said:

Ontario only has 3 players over 205 worthy of contributing. The 200 and 205 players that must play on the D-line and O-line would be playing LB or DE if not for the paucity of quality size. RV had 6 or 8 over 205 contributing.

Ontario has a 5-7 QB, that has problems seeing over the O-line and D-line. How many of his passes were deflected? How many of his throws were off target due to poor vision? When behind and the defense knows you're going to throw every down and the WRs aren't getting separation, any average passer is going to throw INTs. When playing a spread and you have to roll the QB to help him see down field you eliminate half of your receivers.  

How do you know that "proper" coaching isn't being done? Could it not be that accepting the coaching isn't happening or the physical tools aren't there to successfully implement the techniques being taught?

Tackling will never improve if toughness isn't there. Be honest, there isn't much of that on this team. Toughness is innate, it can't be taught. You either like to hit or you don't. Heck when I played we had several defensive starters that were't allowed to practice live or passive, because they were injuring their teammates.

You're clueless. One can't practice "adjustments". By definition an adjustment means, you see something during a game, that wasn't seen on video and you have to "adjust" on the fly during a game or at halftime. It is impossible to "adjust" to lack of size and toughness.

WINNING "culture" in team sports comes when there has been many years of winning(7-3 or better in football) that players on varsity have experienced at lower levels and have seen on varsity teams of the past. LOSING is also a "culture". Great coaching of culture can be done when there is video of winning teams of the past making many great plays on offense and defense, that can be shown to current teams. I am quite certain there is no such video to be shown today. It is MUCH more difficult to change a losing culture to a winning culture than it is to maintain a winning culture. In football, changing a losing culture to a winning culture, FIRST there has to be 2 or 3 classes in a row that have good size, good athletes, toughness, good numbers and a disdain for losing.

I don't know what game you were watching. "Moving the ball at times" means more than around 50 yards in a half. Heck their first 2 possessions in the first half came deep in RV territory. I think they got 1 first down. If they had average abilities two TDs would've been scored. BTW, "moving the ball at times" NEVER wins football games

What deficiencies? Talent, size, and toughness with good coaching AFTER a losing culture has been over come equates to winning seasons.

Clueless again. There are NO "supporting casts" in football. ALL 11 players on offense AND defense are equally important. In basketball you can have 2 very good players and a "supporting cast" and will win. If 60% of your players in football are no more than a "supporting cast" you lose big time. That's close to describing what we see this year.  

So the coaching is fine? We can't expect improvement week to week because the players are so bad? Any hope for improved defensive play is hopeless because toughness is biological? We don't need to bother with adjustments because we know we suck anyways? So there was nothing that could have been done to prevent what occurred?


And when it comes to "good size, good athletes, toughness, good numbers, and a distain for losing", that is all beyond the control of coaching... correct? Is that what I am reading? We can't develop size, we can't produce better athletes, we can't encourage more kids to come out, and we can't develop a disdain for losing within our players? Honestly, I think its unethical to even have football in the first place with that understanding of the game. Why mislead kids into playing when we know they aren't going to be competitive in the first place all while being at high risk for injury when they do play. We have other sports that our  biologically impaired players can go suck at and where they can learn the same life lessons with lower risk for injury.

[heresjim]

Oct 5, 2019 14:08:06 GMT -5 dude said:

Oct 5, 2019 9:49:42 GMT -5 heresjim said:

Ontario definitely has similar amounts of players as RV when it comes to kids over 205. You are correct that they are not good (though Ontario has had sub 205 players that contributed to the o/d line and backer positions before). They also may not have a 215 lbs running back, but they have enough speedy receivers out there that get separation frequently.

I'm surprised you say that there is no place for growth. Talent matters, yes, but you can always maximize the potential of your players by teaching them how to execute better. There were at least 6 turnovers last night before I left... and many were just from stupid throws made repeatedly. That can be avoided with proper coaching.

Tackling can be improved upon (unless you think it's some biologically determined skill that is absent from the team lol). Culture and chemistry can facilitated by the Coaches in order to create leaders and comraderie(and they have had the time to implement it). And if you don't try or practice making any adjustments, you are cutting down the probability of winning needlessly (and not even finding out what you actually do well). The score was 7-0 at half time, and we were moving the ball at times. This was not a game we had a 0% of winning.

Talent isn't going to overcome these types of deficiencies, especially if their supporting cast played like they did tonight. In fact, they probably will transfer somewhere else like many others have...

What is your coach's record? 

11-19-0 with Lima Bath 
5-11 with us

16-30 is the total record. (Might be 16-34 by the time this season is over)

Ontario does not have a ton to work with, but they have comparable talent to a team like River Valley. It's unacceptable to get blown out by them and show regression at every phase of the game (especially when you are half way through your 2nd year with the team). 

[Willard Fillmore]

I've been around long enough, seen enough high school football and high school football players to know their record would be no better than 2-8, 3-7 before the season started. Regardless of who the coaches were.

Surely you aren't so doltish to tell us the reason for losing vs winning is for the most part due to coaching. 

The longest tenured and most successful coach in Ontario football history had losing seasons as well as undefeated, 9-1 and 8-2 seasons. Same coaches, coaching the same system. Why losing records AND winning records? The difference in.....TALENT. Willingness to be coached. TALENT. Toughness. TALENT.

THANK YOU Dude for chiming in. Jim, since Dude is afraid to read my posts, ask him what Lexington's coach's record was before this year and what his record is this year. ALSO, ask Dude why Lexington's records over the past 5 years have been 7-3, 7-3, 2-8, 6-4 and 1-5. Why the differences? 

[heresjim]

Oct 6, 2019 13:50:18 GMT -5 Willard Fillmore said:

I've been around long enough, seen enough high school football and high school football players to know their record would be no better than 2-8, 3-7 before the season started. Regardless of who the coaches were.

Surely you aren't so doltish to tell us the reason for losing vs winning is for the most part due to coaching. 

The longest tenured and most successful coach in Ontario football history had losing seasons as well as undefeated, 9-1 and 8-2 seasons. Same coaches, coaching the same system. Why losing records AND winning records? The difference in.....TALENT. Willingness to be coached. TALENT. Toughness. TALENT.

THANK YOU Dude for chiming in. Jim, since Dude is afraid to read my posts, ask him what Lexington's coach's record was before this year and what his record is this year. ALSO, ask Dude why Lex had winning records the past 4 seasons and why their record is so poor this year.

I didn't expect us doing better than 4-6, and I knew it was always possible we would go 2-8. But not all 2-8 seasons are the same, and it's possible to envision what the future may look like when we do have talent one day. I watched that game (and some of the others), and neither the system nor execution give me hope. Neither does the play calling nor the clock management...


My complaints are not about not winning enough... it's about the fact that we are not maximizing what we have. If you can't maximize the performance of the pieces that you currently have, then you won't be able to when you actually have talent. Kreger had division 1 talent (more than a few players) for a period from 2010-2014 and the team went 5-5 and 6-4 at times. Do you think this coaching staff does differently with the same type of talent? You really think no one could have done better?

The main reason I make these comments is because I want to prevent the travesty of wasting generational talent one day (and to hopefully facilitate growth in the players who don't have the talent). This attitude of "the talent is so bad, we can't evaluate the coaches" will prevent us from seeing that travesty until it is too late. Pretty soon, Ontario might have the talent to make some form of a run, and when we watch it get wasted because we didn't want to evaluate the coaching.... You can fill in the rest lol.

[Willard Fillmore]

AS I SAID...I was SURE it wasn't going to be better than 2-8, 3-7. THE reason was LACK of talent. I knew the quality of Ontario's roster and had a good idea of the quality of the roster of the other schools on the schedule.  

By definition, "more than a few" means 4+. Are you prone to exaggeration? I don't recall anything like 5. You saying Div1 gives a good indication. There's DivI and there's DivI. There's Akron U and there's Ohio State. I don't recall five DivI players. Just because you go to even a Mid-Am school doesn't mean you're worthy. There was 1 at a Mid-Am level, but just a special team player. 

Please try to be honest. OBVIOUSLY there is no DivI talent on this roster. I seriously doubt there's one that could play DivIII, regardless of who the head coach is. AND it is impossible to predict what middle school players will become. Another reason to doubt. 

Your postulate is silly, impossible to prove one way or the other. But I'm willing to say this staff would have had about the same record with the same players Kreger and his staff had. Who would have done better? Your answer has to be better than.... someone. When one complains one must have specifics for improvement or one looks bad. 

I have extreme disdain for those that gritch and moan about coaching. OBVIOUSLY you think this group is bad. OK wise one. PLEASE give us a list of head coaches that you are 100% certain would be A LOT better and 100% certain would want the job. Then, I assume you are smart enough to know that most of a new head coach's assistants would be the same or from the same pool as the current. If you hire a new head football coach from further than 25 miles away, not many of his assistants would travel to Ontario without a job in the system, which there wouldn't be. It would be lucky to find one for a new head coach. Have you pondered that? 

[heresjim]

Oct 6, 2019 15:33:32 GMT -5 Willard Fillmore said:

AS I SAID...I was SURE it wasn't going to be better than 2-8, 3-7. THE reason was LACK of talent. I knew the quality of Ontario's roster and had a good idea of the quality of the roster of the other schools on the schedule.  

By definition, "more than a few" means 4+. Are you prone to exaggeration? I don't recall anything like 5. Saying Div1 gives a good indication. There's Div1 and there's Div1. There's Akron U and there's Ohio State. I don't recall five DivI players. Just because you go to even a Mid-Am school doesn't mean you're worthy. There were a couple at a Mid-Am level, but none of them played more than special teams, if at all.

Please try to be honest. OBVIOUSLY there is no Div1 talent on this roster. I seriously doubt there's one that could play DivIII, regardless of who the head coach is. AND it is impossible to predict what middle school players will become. Another reason to doubt. 

Your postulate is silly, impossible to prove one way or the other. But I'm willing to say this staff would have had about the same record with the same players Kreger and his staff had. Who would have done better? Your answer has to be better than.... someone. When one complains they must have specifics for improvement or look bad. 

I have extreme disdain for those that gritch and moan about coaching. OBVIOUSLY you think this group is bad. OK wise one. PLEASE give us a list of head coaches that you are 100% certain would be A LOT better and 100% certain would want the job. Then, I assume you are smart enough to know that most of a new head coaches assistants would be the same or from the same pool as the current. If you hire a new head football coach from further than 25 miles away, none of his assistants would travel to Ontario without a job in the system.

There were definitely at least 4 division 1 players over the course of those years. John Coy (Toledo), Bronson Krull (Yale), Drew Boatwright (Bowling Green), and Zac Bartman (Bowling Green) were all on division 1 rosters at one point. Cameron Mack was one of the best players I ever saw go division 2. Bryan Eyerly went division 2 and played. Jordan Campbell was a borderline division 1 talent if he could have kept his head on straight. Unless you are expecting a division 4 high school to have 4+ division 1 college players all on 1 team before being competitive then... I don't know how you got to that conclusion. Clear Fork had dominated the moac before with less. Bellevue is a perennial playoff contender, and it often times doesn't have players that could even sniff a mac roster (maybe they just have really good "toughness" genes lol).

So, anyways back to the main issue at hand. How should I respond to games like the one against River Valley? You have extreme disdain for the constant moaning about coaching, but you offer no alternative way to respond... And in regards to me having an alternative, why do I need to have one? I'm not critiquing the administration for not acting on coaches that are available. I'm also not in charge of hiring or firing anyone, nor have I requested that our coaches be fired. I'm a dude on a forum stating my opinion, and the administration can do what they want with that opinion. If they feel moved by it and they have a viable alternative, cool. If they don't, also cool.

And in regards to the assistants, I don't think you should assume that the situation is stuck how it is. Hawkins brought mostly new assistants when he was hired and many of them had a hefty commute (some left, others have stayed). Other head coaches develop their assistants and provide them the structure they need to be successful.  

[footballer]

The fact that the predicted outcome for this game (as voted above) was 11-0 in River Valley’s favor supports fillmore’s point that no one seriously expected this to be a competitive game. The fact that Ontario has digressed throughout the year likely supports here’sjim’s.
Although one thing that hasn’t really been mentioned is the strength of Ontario’s opponents. The MOAC is good this year! The level of competition between their first three games and most recent three has definitely increased. This could mean that Ontario has shown growth (which I don’t necessarily believe), but it is masked by simply facing opponents that are better.

Since assistants have been brought up, how many on the current coaching staff work at Ontario?

[heresjim]

Oct 7, 2019 5:35:20 GMT -5 footballer said:

The fact that the predicted outcome for this game (as voted above) was 11-0 in River Valley’s favor supports fillmore’s point that no one seriously expected this to be a competitive game. The fact that Ontario has digressed throughout the year likely supports here’sjim’s.
Although one thing that hasn’t really been mentioned is the strength of Ontario’s opponents. The MOAC is good this year! The level of competition between their first three games and most recent three has definitely increased. This could mean that Ontario has shown growth (which I don’t necessarily believe), but it is masked by simply facing opponents that are better.

Since assistants have been brought up, how many on the current coaching staff work at Ontario?

I believe only 2 assistants work at Ontario (Bloom and Mutti) though I may be unaware of a recent hire. There were years where that number was as few as 1.

[Willard Fillmore]

Oct 6, 2019 16:44:48 GMT -5 heresjim said:

Oct 6, 2019 15:33:32 GMT -5 Willard Fillmore said:

AS I SAID...I was SURE it wasn't going to be better than 2-8, 3-7. THE reason was LACK of talent. I knew the quality of Ontario's roster and had a good idea of the quality of the roster of the other schools on the schedule.  

By definition, "more than a few" means 4+. Are you prone to exaggeration? I don't recall anything like 5. Saying Div1 gives a good indication. There's Div1 and there's Div1. There's Akron U and there's Ohio State. I don't recall five DivI players. Just because you go to even a Mid-Am school doesn't mean you're worthy. There were a couple at a Mid-Am level, but none of them played more than special teams, if at all.

Please try to be honest. OBVIOUSLY there is no Div1 talent on this roster. I seriously doubt there's one that could play DivIII, regardless of who the head coach is. AND it is impossible to predict what middle school players will become. Another reason to doubt. 

Your postulate is silly, impossible to prove one way or the other. But I'm willing to say this staff would have had about the same record with the same players Kreger and his staff had. Who would have done better? Your answer has to be better than.... someone. When one complains they must have specifics for improvement or look bad. 

I have extreme disdain for those that gritch and moan about coaching. OBVIOUSLY you think this group is bad. OK wise one. PLEASE give us a list of head coaches that you are 100% certain would be A LOT better and 100% certain would want the job. Then, I assume you are smart enough to know that most of a new head coaches assistants would be the same or from the same pool as the current. If you hire a new head football coach from further than 25 miles away, none of his assistants would travel to Ontario without a job in the system.

There were definitely at least 4 division 1 players over the course of those years. John Coy (Toledo), Bronson Krull (Yale), Drew Boatwright (Bowling Green), and Zac Bartman (Bowling Green) were all on division 1 rosters at one point. Cameron Mack was one of the best players I ever saw go division 2. Bryan Eyerly went division 2 and played. Jordan Campbell was a borderline division 1 talent if he could have kept his head on straight. Unless you are expecting a division 4 high school to have 4+ division 1 college players all on 1 team before being competitive then... I don't know how you got to that conclusion. Clear Fork had dominated the moac before with less. Bellevue is a perennial playoff contender, and it often times doesn't have players that could even sniff a mac roster (maybe they just have really good "toughness" genes lol).

So, anyways back to the main issue at hand. How should I respond to games like the one against River Valley? You have extreme disdain for the constant moaning about coaching, but you offer no alternative way to respond... And in regards to me having an alternative, why do I need to have one? I'm not critiquing the administration for not acting on coaches that are available. I'm also not in charge of hiring or firing anyone, nor have I requested that our coaches be fired. I'm a dude on a forum stating my opinion, and the administration can do what they want with that opinion. If they feel moved by it and they have a viable alternative, cool. If they don't, also cool.

And in regards to the assistants, I don't think you should assume that the situation is stuck how it is. Hawkins brought mostly new assistants when he was hired and many of them had a hefty commute (some left, others have stayed). Other head coaches develop their assistants and provide them the structure they need to be successful.  

There definitely were NOT 4 Div1 players. Coy was at BG one year, did not play and disappeared. Yale does not have a Div1(FBS) football program.  Boatwright never made a BG roster. Bartman was at BG for 5 years, played LB, had less than 10 solo tackles in 5 years. never did more than play special teams. The others are immaterial to your exaggerated claim, they DID NOT play Div1. 

More ignorance! A football TEAM needs MUCH MUCH more than just 4 players to have a good record.

If you were honest, were good at evaluating high school football players, didn't view things through colored lenses, you would see that there is a lack of talent. RV had 3 times more quality players over 205, were not afraid to tackle, had a 6-3 215 tailback and just as much speed. AND they beat CF, the team you're holding up as an example of greatness in the MOC and "moac". BTW don't tell a coach or player from CF they didn't have as much talent as Ontario. 

More ignorance. You're the one, not me, that's complaining about coaching. Thus, YOU are the one that MUST tell us who would be a much better coach and KNOW they'd want the job. Just whining is counterproductive. 

In regards to assistants, PLEASE tell us where Hawkins' assistants drove from. For no more than they make, very few assistants will drive 60 miles round trip for chump change 6 days/week. 

How does a head coach develop assistants when he's only their head coach for 2 years?? 

[Willard Fillmore]

Oct 7, 2019 5:35:20 GMT -5 footballer said:

The fact that the predicted outcome for this game (as voted above) was 11-0 in River Valley’s favor supports fillmore’s point that no one seriously expected this to be a competitive game. The fact that Ontario has digressed throughout the year likely supports here’sjim’s.
Although one thing that hasn’t really been mentioned is the strength of Ontario’s opponents. The MOAC is good this year! The level of competition between their first three games and most recent three has definitely increased. This could mean that Ontario has shown growth (which I don’t necessarily believe), but it is masked by simply facing opponents that are better.

Since assistants have been brought up, how many on the current coaching staff work at Ontario?

How in the heck can it be said that "Ontario has digress throughout the year"?  Lex scored 47 against Ontario in the first game of the year and hasn't won since. Highland and Black River, both football schools, have less talent than Ontario. OR maybe their coaches are much worse? 

[heresjim]

Oct 7, 2019 15:14:48 GMT -5 Willard Fillmore said:

Oct 6, 2019 16:44:48 GMT -5 heresjim said:

There were definitely at least 4 division 1 players over the course of those years. John Coy (Toledo), Bronson Krull (Yale), Drew Boatwright (Bowling Green), and Zac Bartman (Bowling Green) were all on division 1 rosters at one point. Cameron Mack was one of the best players I ever saw go division 2. Bryan Eyerly went division 2 and played. Jordan Campbell was a borderline division 1 talent if he could have kept his head on straight. Unless you are expecting a division 4 high school to have 4+ division 1 college players all on 1 team before being competitive then... I don't know how you got to that conclusion. Clear Fork had dominated the moac before with less. Bellevue is a perennial playoff contender, and it often times doesn't have players that could even sniff a mac roster (maybe they just have really good "toughness" genes lol).

So, anyways back to the main issue at hand. How should I respond to games like the one against River Valley? You have extreme disdain for the constant moaning about coaching, but you offer no alternative way to respond... And in regards to me having an alternative, why do I need to have one? I'm not critiquing the administration for not acting on coaches that are available. I'm also not in charge of hiring or firing anyone, nor have I requested that our coaches be fired. I'm a dude on a forum stating my opinion, and the administration can do what they want with that opinion. If they feel moved by it and they have a viable alternative, cool. If they don't, also cool.

And in regards to the assistants, I don't think you should assume that the situation is stuck how it is. Hawkins brought mostly new assistants when he was hired and many of them had a hefty commute (some left, others have stayed). Other head coaches develop their assistants and provide them the structure they need to be successful.  

There definitely were NOT 4 Div1 players. Coy was at BG one year, did not play and disappeared. Yale does not have a Div1(FBS) football program.  Boatwright never made a BG roster. Bartman was at BG for 5 years, played LB, had less than 10 solo tackles in 5 years. never did more than play special teams. The others are immaterial to your exaggerated claim, they DID NOT play Div1. 

More ignorance! A football TEAM needs MUCH MUCH more than just 4 players to have a good record.

If you were honest, were good at evaluating high school football players, didn't view things through colored lenses, you would see that there is a lack of talent. RV had 3 times more quality players over 205, were not afraid to tackle, had a 6-3 215 tailback and just as much speed. AND they beat CF, the team you're holding up as an example of greatness in the MOC and "moac". BTW don't tell a coach or player from CF they didn't have as much talent as Ontario. 

More ignorance. You're the one, not me, that's complaining about coaching. Thus, YOU are the one that MUST tell us who would be a much better coach and KNOW they'd want the job. Just whining is counterproductive. 

In regards to assistants, PLEASE tell us where Hawkins' assistants drove from. For no more than they make, very few assistants will drive 60 miles round trip for chump change 6 days/week. 

How does a head coach develop assistants when he's only their head coach for 2 years?? 

Nope, John Coy was on Toledo's roster.

utrockets.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=521

Don't worry, I don't insult people for misremembering because it's only human and I like to debate in good faith.

If you want to define division 1 that way, fine, Ontario had no division 1 players of significance. Maybe you are swayed by players that were all Ohio? The main point is that there was enough talent on those teams to draw comparisons to some of the Bellevue and Clear Fork teams that have performed well (without division 1 talent and with the same size of population pool). Yes, I would say it to the face of those other school's players/coaches (I would actually be curious to hear their opinion). Neither of us are going to objectively prove one way or the other, but I think those teams were talented. Obviously you don't think so (at least not to the degree that I do)... so this is probably the end of the discussion.

As for assistants, I know Hawkins brought some guys from Wynford and Galion who commuted 35+ minutes (the Wynford guys) a day to come coach.

And in regards to what I MUST do, I have every right to state my opinion. I'm obviously not trying to convince you, I'm just putting my thoughts out there for the consumption of whatever audience would like to read. If people feel moved by my thoughts, they can choose how to act how they want if they have other information that compels them to act. If not, they don't have to do anything.

[footballer]

I’m sorry. I meant to type regressed, not digressed. Would you agree with that?

[Willard Fillmore]

What is a "type of regression"??

Lex having more talent was the reason for their win over Ontario. Ontario having more talent than Highland and Black River was the reason for their wins. RV having more talent than Ontario was the reason for their win. No regression of any "type".

[Willard Fillmore]

Oct 7, 2019 18:30:44 GMT -5 heresjim said:

Oct 7, 2019 15:14:48 GMT -5 Willard Fillmore said:

There definitely were NOT 4 Div1 players. Coy was at BG one year, did not play and disappeared. Yale does not have a Div1(FBS) football program.  Boatwright never made a BG roster. Bartman was at BG for 5 years, played LB, had less than 10 solo tackles in 5 years. never did more than play special teams. The others are immaterial to your exaggerated claim, they DID NOT play Div1. 

More ignorance! A football TEAM needs MUCH MUCH more than just 4 players to have a good record.

If you were honest, were good at evaluating high school football players, didn't view things through colored lenses, you would see that there is a lack of talent. RV had 3 times more quality players over 205, were not afraid to tackle, had a 6-3 215 tailback and just as much speed. AND they beat CF, the team you're holding up as an example of greatness in the MOC and "moac". BTW don't tell a coach or player from CF they didn't have as much talent as Ontario. 

More ignorance. You're the one, not me, that's complaining about coaching. Thus, YOU are the one that MUST tell us who would be a much better coach and KNOW they'd want the job. Just whining is counterproductive. 

In regards to assistants, PLEASE tell us where Hawkins' assistants drove from. For no more than they make, very few assistants will drive 60 miles round trip for chump change 6 days/week. 

How does a head coach develop assistants when he's only their head coach for 2 years?? 

Nope, John Coy was on Toledo's roster.

utrockets.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=521

Don't worry, I don't insult people for misremembering because it's only human and I like to debate in good faith.

If you want to define division 1 that way, fine, Ontario had no division 1 players of significance. Maybe you are swayed by players that were all Ohio? The main point is that there was enough talent on those teams to draw comparisons to some of the Bellevue and Clear Fork teams that have performed well (without division 1 talent and with the same size of population pool). Yes, I would say it to the face of those other school's players/coaches (I would actually be curious to hear their opinion). Neither of us are going to objectively prove one way or the other, but I think those teams were talented. Obviously you don't think so (at least not to the degree that I do)... so this is probably the end of the discussion.

As for assistants, I know Hawkins brought some guys from Wynford and Galion who commuted 35+ minutes (the Wynford guys) a day to come coach.

And in regards to what I MUST do, I have every right to state my opinion. I'm obviously not trying to convince you, I'm just putting my thoughts out there for the consumption of whatever audience would like to read. If people feel moved by my thoughts, they can choose how to act how they want if they have other information that compels them to act. If not, they don't have to do anything.

Sorry a Typo on my part. I typed BG for Coy and meant their rival Toledo. My POINT stands. Coy as you showed and I read, was on a TU roster as Freshman, but never to be seen again. A walk on? It's been proven that you gave BAD info when you said "at least 4 DI players". I apologized for my error. We see no apologies from you. 

In the time frame you want to talk about, 2010 to 2015, Ontario's records were 4-6, 7-3, 7-3, 8-2, 5-5. The winning seasons were when that class were Sophs, Jrs and Srs. Years of more TALENT vs years of less TALENT. All years when there were more TALENT than this year. During that same time period CF had records of 6-4, 3-7, 4-6, 9-1, 7-3. AGAIN, years of more TALENT vs lesser TALENT. 

More guesses instead of facts by you. Neither of us know the address of Hawkins "some" assistants that came with him. The best we can do is look at the distances from high school to high school in your postulate. It's 8 miles from Galion to Ontario and 22 miles from Wynford. NEITHER close to your fake 35+ minutes. In both cases the vast majority of miles are on US30 where the speed limit is 70MPH. BTW, there are a total of 10 assistants in the program. Other than your "some", the others taught at Ontario or live in the area. Any apologies for this? 

You post guesses, I do research and give facts. Your posts can't be trusted or respected.    

[footballer]

Oct 8, 2019 11:22:37 GMT -5 Willard Fillmore said:

What is a "type of regression"??

Lex having more talent was the reason for their win over Ontario. Ontario having more talent than Highland and Black River was the reason for their wins. RV having more talent than Ontario was the reason for their win. No regression of any "type".

I meant that it was a typo. I meant to type regression and instead I typed digression.

I tend to agree with you on the idea that the more talented team will win in most matchups. But I don’t think talent is the only factor. There’s also a place for gameplan, execution, adjustments, player development over the course of the season, etc. If talent was the only thing that mattered, and each outcome was predetermined by which team had the most talent, then there would be no point in playing the games!

I believe in the old philosophy that “you’re always getting better or getting worse, but you never stay the same”. On the face of it, I just don’t know that I can be made to believe that Ontario has gotten better over the course of this season. Since I also don’t believe it’s possible for them to stay the same, the only option remaining is that they’ve gotten worse. That’s what I mean when I say I think that they have regressed.

I do recognize that the level of competition is greater in the most recent three games than it was in the first three. Since it’s not possible for them to line up and play against an exactly equal opponent each week, we simply have to look at how they have performed against the opponents they have faced. When I do that, my opinion (and that’s all it is) Is that they seem to be regressing.

[Willard Fillmore]

SOOO... using your theory...after the bad loss to Lex, Ontario wins two games. Therefore, Ontario was getting better, game plans, execution, adjustments and player development was occurring? Then 3 losses, to teams with considerable more talent. No longer sound game plans, execution, adjustments and player development??

The only constant is the disparity in TALENT.

You are correct though. Game plans, execution, adjustments and player development can make a 1 or 2 TD difference. But will never overcome a 40 point differential that came with 2 or 3 quarters of a running clock. TALENT alone is the reason for those kind of blowouts. 

[footballer]

Point taken. My primary suggestion is that, while talent is a major factor, there are other factors that also influence the outcome of games and the trajectory of a team throughout the season. Those that I listed are only a small sample.

I don’t think it’s completely absurd to suggest that a team can show growth at one point in a season and regression at another. I recognize that the opponent has a lot to do with the outcome, but can’t we look at a team, regardless of the opponent, and make a judgement about how that team is performing compared to other points in the season?

[heresjim]

Oct 8, 2019 13:29:07 GMT -5 Willard Fillmore said:

Oct 7, 2019 18:30:44 GMT -5 heresjim said:

Nope, John Coy was on Toledo's roster.

utrockets.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=521

Don't worry, I don't insult people for misremembering because it's only human and I like to debate in good faith.

If you want to define division 1 that way, fine, Ontario had no division 1 players of significance. Maybe you are swayed by players that were all Ohio? The main point is that there was enough talent on those teams to draw comparisons to some of the Bellevue and Clear Fork teams that have performed well (without division 1 talent and with the same size of population pool). Yes, I would say it to the face of those other school's players/coaches (I would actually be curious to hear their opinion). Neither of us are going to objectively prove one way or the other, but I think those teams were talented. Obviously you don't think so (at least not to the degree that I do)... so this is probably the end of the discussion.

As for assistants, I know Hawkins brought some guys from Wynford and Galion who commuted 35+ minutes (the Wynford guys) a day to come coach.

And in regards to what I MUST do, I have every right to state my opinion. I'm obviously not trying to convince you, I'm just putting my thoughts out there for the consumption of whatever audience would like to read. If people feel moved by my thoughts, they can choose how to act how they want if they have other information that compels them to act. If not, they don't have to do anything.

Sorry a Typo on my part. I typed BG for Coy and meant their rival Toledo. My POINT stands. Coy as you showed and I read, was on a TU roster as Freshman, but never to be seen again. A walk on? It's been proven that you gave BAD info when you said "at least 4 DI players". I apologized for my error. We see no apologies from you. 

In the time frame you want to talk about, 2010 to 2015, Ontario's records were 4-6, 7-3, 7-3, 8-2, 5-5. The winning seasons were when that class were Sophs, Jrs and Srs. Years of more TALENT vs years of less TALENT. All years when there were more TALENT than this year. During that same time period CF had records of 6-4, 3-7, 4-6, 9-1, 7-3. AGAIN, years of more TALENT vs lesser TALENT. 

More guesses instead of facts by you. Neither of us know the address of Hawkins "some" assistants that came with him. The best we can do is look at the distances from high school to high school in your postulate. It's 8 miles from Galion to Ontario and 22 miles from Wynford. NEITHER close to your fake 35+ minutes. In both cases the vast majority of miles are on US30 where the speed limit is 70MPH. BTW, there are a total of 10 assistants in the program. Other than your "some", the others taught at Ontario or live in the area. Any apologies for this? 

You post guesses, I do research and give facts. Your posts can't be trusted or respected.    

I defined division 1 players differently than you. Neither of us have a objective definition. No surprise you ignored my main intention on making such a comment.

The main point was that those rosters were talented and that they could have had better records. I bring up teams like Bellevue and Clear Fork (though Bellevue is clearly the better example), because they are similar population pools and they over perform with what they have.

And regarding the argument that we could never get assistants to drive a considerable to come coach, I'm just showing examples where it had happened. I said it was possible, and that Hawkins got some of his assistants to drive a decent distance. I personally asked Coach Cooper while he was with the team, and he said he commuted 40 minutes from his farm in Wynford. I know they had another guy from Wynford, and I also know they had some assistants from Galion (no, the galion guys didn't drive 35 minutes, that is why I put a qualifier after I put 35+ minutes). Yes, the majority will be local guys, but the main point is that it's possible to attract some assistants from further away if the right coach comes around. Feel free to disagree.

[dude]

Oct 9, 2019 0:55:10 GMT -5 heresjim said:

And regarding the argument that we could never get assistants to drive a considerable to come coach, I'm just showing examples where it had happened. I said it was possible, and that Hawkins got some of his assistants to drive a decent distance. I personally asked Coach Cooper while he was with the team, and he said he commuted 40 minutes from his farm in Wynford. I know they had another guy from Wynford, and I also know they had some assistants from Galion (no, the galion guys didn't drive 35 minutes, that is why I put a qualifier after I put 35+ minutes). Yes, the majority will be local guys, but the main point is that it's possible to attract some assistants from further away if the right coach comes around. Feel free to disagree.

Is your point that Ontario guys cannot be good football coaches? Sounds like it.

[heresjim]

Oct 9, 2019 7:20:11 GMT -5 dude said:

Oct 9, 2019 0:55:10 GMT -5 heresjim said:

And regarding the argument that we could never get assistants to drive a considerable to come coach, I'm just showing examples where it had happened. I said it was possible, and that Hawkins got some of his assistants to drive a decent distance. I personally asked Coach Cooper while he was with the team, and he said he commuted 40 minutes from his farm in Wynford. I know they had another guy from Wynford, and I also know they had some assistants from Galion (no, the galion guys didn't drive 35 minutes, that is why I put a qualifier after I put 35+ minutes). Yes, the majority will be local guys, but the main point is that it's possible to attract some assistants from further away if the right coach comes around. Feel free to disagree.

Is your point that Ontario guys cannot be good football coaches? Sounds like it.

Highlight for me where you get that idea? And trace back the dialogue about the discussion on assistants, I have made comments that suggest that is not the case.

[dude]

Oct 9, 2019 9:02:52 GMT -5 heresjim said:

Oct 9, 2019 7:20:11 GMT -5 dude said:

Is your point that Ontario guys cannot be good football coaches? Sounds like it.

Highlight for me where you get that idea? And trace back the dialogue about the discussion on assistants, I have made comments that suggest that is not the case.

You keep hitting on the idea of needing to bring assistants in from a far. Besides, it was a question not a statement. The reason I asked about your coach's record was because I did not know it. AND I always wonder why a school hires a coach with a losing record but then questions them when they lose at their school.