|
|
Post by 419bossman on Sept 18, 2020 21:50:48 GMT -5
Today the OHSAA officially released the regions for the playoffs. Joe Eitel has posted each region and each team is ranked, the Harbin Points will not be used the seeding will be set by a vote. It will be very interesting how each coach will vote, how the brackets will be set up and if any teams will get a bye.
|
|
|
|
Post by Willard Fillmore on Sept 18, 2020 22:30:24 GMT -5
The public may never know how all coaches vote.
There WILL be byes unless a bunch of schools opt out of playing in the playoffs, bringing the number of teams in each Region of each Division down to EXACTLY 16 teams and 8 teams in DI
|
|
|
|
Post by BellevueBuckeye on Sept 18, 2020 22:40:57 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by BellevueBuckeye on Sept 18, 2020 22:45:10 GMT -5
The interesting thing to see will be how they handle D1 with it's two 16 team regions and two 17 team regions
In the the ones with 17, 15 get byes while the other two play a play in game. So do they also give the 16 team region teams byes in week 7, or do they start those 2 regions in week 7 and then either have those two regional champs get a bye before the state semis, or have them play each other with the winner getting a bye before the state final.
|
|
|
|
Post by fbfan on Sept 19, 2020 10:21:24 GMT -5
After the coaches vote the seeding, will the teams be automatically placed in the assigned spot in the bracket, or will the coaches select their spot like they do in basketball?
|
|
|
|
Post by usa70pp on Sept 20, 2020 8:52:46 GMT -5
All this speculation is fine, but I look for only about half the Division 5, 6 and 7 schools to opt in. In some cases it will be the fact there will be no money coming from OHSAA for travel or pre game ticket sales and in some cases schools that are trying to pass a levy and are crying the poor mouth. They don't want to have the electorate saying they want money and yet are doing something like this. With the possible exception of D1 I don't see all of the remaining division schools opting in.
|
|
|
|
Post by BellevueBuckeye on Sept 20, 2020 9:09:05 GMT -5
The deadline to opt in was Sept 17th, and the regions that were announced by OHSAA on the 18th include only the teams that did.
There is one more deadline, Sept 24, for schools to withdraw without penalty. Are you expecting a bunch of withdrawals by then?
|
|
|
|
Post by usa70pp on Sept 20, 2020 15:19:24 GMT -5
As of now it seems only 45 schools total have withdrawn. I seem to have greatly misjudged the schools. Time will tell.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2020 10:55:09 GMT -5
After the coaches vote the seeding, will the teams be automatically placed in the assigned spot in the bracket, or will the coaches select their spot like they do in basketball? Placed according to seed by the OHSAA. Team on top of bracket has the opportunity to host, if they can’t the other school will host. If a team can’t play for whatever reason the other team advances |
|
|
|
Post by Willard Fillmore on Sept 21, 2020 13:25:56 GMT -5
SO....The highest seeds WILL given the byes by the OHSAA, regardless of what the head coach wants to do?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2020 13:34:54 GMT -5
SO....The highest seeds WILL given the byes by the OHSAA, regardless of what the head coach wants to do? Only input coaches have is voting 1-whatever |
|
|
|
Post by Willard Fillmore on Sept 21, 2020 13:53:17 GMT -5
Instead of the Harbin Formula doing the seeding, this year coaches or a cabal of coaches can purposely "vote" a team/teams lower or his team higher, than it should be. To improve his team's chances of advancing or hosting a game. At a minimum helping conference teams seeding.
|
|
|
|
Post by fbfan on Sept 21, 2020 15:18:23 GMT -5
Will they make the coaches' seeding votes public? That may curb any of that.
|
|
|
|
Post by baldref on Sept 21, 2020 15:33:33 GMT -5
Instead of the Harbin Formula doing the seeding, this year coaches or a cabal of coaches can purposely "vote" a team/teams lower or his team higher, than it should be. To improve his team's chances of advancing or hosting a game. At a minimum helping conference teams seeding. Great Point. This will be very interesting, We,ve seen it happen before at basketball seedings, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility, |
|
|
|
Post by dude on Sept 21, 2020 18:28:01 GMT -5
Instead of the Harbin Formula doing the seeding, this year coaches or a cabal of coaches can purposely "vote" a team/teams lower or his team higher, than it should be. To improve his team's chances of advancing or hosting a game. At a minimum helping conference teams seeding. Great Point. This will be very interesting, We,ve seen it happen before at basketball seedings, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility, So you guys are calling all football coaches cheaters. Although some coaches may lack the ethics to do the right thing, are there seriously entire conferences in the same division and region? Having 1 or 2 coaches stack a seeding vote will not terribly change the seeding results for an entire region. Basketball seeding can be different because sectionals have 12-15 teams. Football regions will have 20-30 teams. Is it a major deal to be 7th or 8th in a region of 28? |
|
|
|
Post by shelbyrr11 on Sept 22, 2020 6:21:53 GMT -5
I don't think it comes off as malicious as you imply.
Most coaches don't have an impressive knowledge arsenal of an entire region. Wins and losses sure, but the three hours this weekend that I spent comparing strength of schedules in Region 14 on Joeeitel this season... Coaches probably spent that time programming for their team or watching film on the next opponent. It wouldn't surprise me if many coaches felt an inadequacy of ranking certain schools without seeing their film (whereas I lack such football grace to be held back by that). Also, familiarity and selection bias probably plays a role.
|
|
|
|
Post by fbfan on Sept 22, 2020 6:35:53 GMT -5
I don't think it comes off as malicious as you imply. Most coaches don't have an impressive knowledge arsenal of an entire region. Wins and losses sure, but the three hours this weekend that I spent comparing strength of schedules in Region 14 on Joeeitel this season... Coaches probably spent that time programming for their team or watching film on the next opponent. It wouldn't surprise me if many coaches felt an inadequacy of ranking certain schools without seeing their film (whereas I lack such football grace to be held back by that). Also, familiarity and selection bias probably plays a role. Exactly. OHSAA needs to explain why they went away from the system that they have used for the last 50 years to include/exclude and rank teams for the playoffs. If they had, this wouldn't be in question now. Given that they have done this, they need to make everything as transparent as possible. |
|
|
|
Post by fanofthegame on Sept 22, 2020 7:06:08 GMT -5
They got rid of the eyeball test because it was flawed. Making the playoffs used to be based on sportswriters voting. There was an obvious bias toward big city schools and schools that had a tradition. I went to a school that has state championships and many deep playoff runs that in the 70’s went undefeated and didn’t make the playoffs because making the playoffs was based on polls/opinions. Someone is going to get hosed.
|
|
|
|
Post by runawaytrain on Sept 22, 2020 9:35:48 GMT -5
Instead of the Harbin Formula doing the seeding, this year coaches or a cabal of coaches can purposely "vote" a team/teams lower or his team higher, than it should be. To improve his team's chances of advancing or hosting a game. At a minimum helping conference teams seeding. it happens in the other sports all the time....or a coach with a completely irrelevant team will just slap together a ballot at the last second with whoever, wherever. Thank god this is the only year of this. |
|
|
|
Post by runawaytrain on Sept 22, 2020 9:37:23 GMT -5
I don't think it comes off as malicious as you imply. Most coaches don't have an impressive knowledge arsenal of an entire region. Wins and losses sure, but the three hours this weekend that I spent comparing strength of schedules in Region 14 on Joeeitel this season... Coaches probably spent that time programming for their team or watching film on the next opponent. It wouldn't surprise me if many coaches felt an inadequacy of ranking certain schools without seeing their film (whereas I lack such football grace to be held back by that). Also, familiarity and selection bias probably plays a role. Exactly. OHSAA needs to explain why they went away from the system that they have used for the last 50 years to include/exclude and rank teams for the playoffs. If they had, this wouldn't be in question now. Given that they have done this, they need to make everything as transparent as possible. They went away from it because they knew schools might have to use a makeshift schedule against teams it normally wouldn't play (larger or smaller). |
|
|
|
Post by dude on Sept 22, 2020 9:53:15 GMT -5
I don't think it comes off as malicious as you imply. Most coaches don't have an impressive knowledge arsenal of an entire region. Wins and losses sure, but the three hours this weekend that I spent comparing strength of schedules in Region 14 on Joeeitel this season... Coaches probably spent that time programming for their team or watching film on the next opponent. It wouldn't surprise me if many coaches felt an inadequacy of ranking certain schools without seeing their film (whereas I lack such football grace to be held back by that). Also, familiarity and selection bias probably plays a role. You may be correct that coaches do not typically know this stuff but this year they need to and I believe they have made those changes in their routines. Basketball coaches have been doing it for years and they still feel it is not perfect so I seriously doubt anyone thinks football will be in it's first attempt. |
|
|
|
Post by dude on Sept 22, 2020 9:55:38 GMT -5
I don't think it comes off as malicious as you imply. Most coaches don't have an impressive knowledge arsenal of an entire region. Wins and losses sure, but the three hours this weekend that I spent comparing strength of schedules in Region 14 on Joeeitel this season... Coaches probably spent that time programming for their team or watching film on the next opponent. It wouldn't surprise me if many coaches felt an inadequacy of ranking certain schools without seeing their film (whereas I lack such football grace to be held back by that). Also, familiarity and selection bias probably plays a role. Exactly. OHSAA needs to explain why they went away from the system that they have used for the last 50 years to include/exclude and rank teams for the playoffs. If they had, this wouldn't be in question now. Given that they have done this, they need to make everything as transparent as possible. Because in reality teams could have 4 open weeks to start the season and they are still allowed in. Some coaches will still use the point system to help them make their voting order. |
|
|
|
Post by BellevueBuckeye on Sept 22, 2020 10:06:13 GMT -5
Exactly. OHSAA needs to explain why they went away from the system that they have used for the last 50 years to include/exclude and rank teams for the playoffs. If they had, this wouldn't be in question now. Given that they have done this, they need to make everything as transparent as possible. Not sure if it will actually happen or not, but when they announced this year's format it was entirely possible that some teams would enter the playoffs having played 0 regular season games. How do you seed an 0-0 team properly using harbins only? Also, I do know for sure there will be some teams entering the playoffs having only played 2-3 games. Now I know the harbin system has the divisors that take into account the number of games played when figuring out your average, and that it seems to work pretty well when comparing a team that only played 8 or 9 games to those that played 10....though I'm not sure how well that translates when comparing a team that played 2 games to one that played 6. |
|
|
|
Post by shelbyrr11 on Sept 22, 2020 10:47:04 GMT -5
Exactly. OHSAA needs to explain why they went away from the system that they have used for the last 50 years to include/exclude and rank teams for the playoffs. If they had, this wouldn't be in question now. Given that they have done this, they need to make everything as transparent as possible. . How do you seed an 0-0 team properly using harbins only? Also, I do know for sure there will be some teams entering the playoffs having only played 2-3 games. Now I know the harbin system has the divisors that take into account the number of games played when figuring out your average, and that it seems to work pretty well when comparing a team that only played 8 or 9 games to those that played 10....though I'm not sure how well that translates when comparing a team that played 2 games to one that played 6. I was under the impression that teams still had to get 2-3ish games played to enter playoffs. With everything flying around so much, I could have read something wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by shelbyrr11 on Sept 22, 2020 10:54:08 GMT -5
I don't think it comes off as malicious as you imply. Most coaches don't have an impressive knowledge arsenal of an entire region. Wins and losses sure, but the three hours this weekend that I spent comparing strength of schedules in Region 14 on Joeeitel this season... Coaches probably spent that time programming for their team or watching film on the next opponent. It wouldn't surprise me if many coaches felt an inadequacy of ranking certain schools without seeing their film (whereas I lack such football grace to be held back by that). Also, familiarity and selection bias probably plays a role. You may be correct that coaches do not typically know this stuff but this year they need to and I believe they have made those changes in their routines. Basketball coaches have been doing it for years and they still feel it is not perfect so I seriously doubt anyone thinks football will be in it's first attempt. I would give some of these coaches some leash. A lot of them are probably also teaching, and that isn't exactly a trip to the apple orchard this year with all the additional rules / tech skills they've had to build. I personally enjoy this playoff seeding framework when it applies to basketball. Then again, basketball gives you a much larger sample size of games before seeding (17ish games ~ 70%+ of a standard season) versus football this year (5 games, 50% of a standard season, with plenty of confounding factors for some teams). There will be slippage and waste in this process but, coming into this discussion as a Shelby fan, the only way the seeding could really hurt us is if we get lined up with a Bellevue or Clyde before the regional semis/finals. My feelings. |
|
|
|
Post by dude on Sept 22, 2020 11:07:31 GMT -5
You may be correct that coaches do not typically know this stuff but this year they need to and I believe they have made those changes in their routines. Basketball coaches have been doing it for years and they still feel it is not perfect so I seriously doubt anyone thinks football will be in it's first attempt. I would give some of these coaches some leash. A lot of them are probably also teaching, and that isn't exactly a trip to the apple orchard this year with all the additional rules / tech skills they've had to build. I personally enjoy this playoff seeding framework when it applies to basketball. Then again, basketball gives you a much larger sample size of games before seeding (17ish games ~ 70%+ of a standard season) versus football this year (5 games, 50% of a standard season, with plenty of confounding factors for some teams). There will be slippage and waste in this process but, coming into this discussion as a Shelby fan, the only way the seeding could really hurt us is if we get lined up with a Bellevue or Clyde before the regional semis/finals. My feelings. Football is traditionally more consistent and doesn't have the immediate ups and downs basketball has plus with only a game a week you have much more time to study and know the region. I think many are teachers and I believe teachers duties have changed but not to the point of it changing their daily demands. It's more of a change to their past routines. Plus most coaching staffs have 7-10 guys and any one of them could be assigned with learning the region. Untrue to popular belief, most head coaches do not do everything. |
|
|
|
Post by BellevueBuckeye on Sept 22, 2020 11:28:25 GMT -5
They got rid of the eyeball test because it was flawed. Making the playoffs used to be based on sportswriters voting. There was an obvious bias toward big city schools and schools that had a tradition. I went to a school that has state championships and many deep playoff runs that in the 70’s went undefeated and didn’t make the playoffs because making the playoffs was based on polls/opinions. Someone is going to get hosed. Opinion Polls have never been part of the OHSAA playoff formula. They've been using the same basic computer point formula developed by Jack Harbin since 1972. Looking through the yearly computer point standings lists, I can only find 2 times they tweaked it (not counting adjusting the point values for wins vs. a certain division as new divisions were added): - in 1974 they stopped including level 3 points (which are now only used in tie breaking situations) - in 1993 they stopped ranking teams solely on a raw total of level 1 points plus level 2 points, and introduced a divisor to account for possible differences in the number games played for both L1 and L2 points, with the new official points total being a sum of those two averages. The reason so many undefeated teams missed the playoffs in the 70's was because of how few teams were allowed in. Here's a breakdown of playoff expansion history: 1972-1979.......12 total playoff teams.......3 Divisions - 1 playoff team per region 1980-1984.......40 total playoff teams.......5 Divisions - 2 playoff teams per region 1985-1993.......80 total playoff teams.......5 Divisions - 4 playoff teams per region 1994-1998.......96 total playoff teams.......6 Divisions - 4 playoff teams per region 1999-2012.......192 total playoff teams.....6 Divisions - 8 playoff teams per region 2013-2019.......224 total playoff teams.....7 Divisions - 8 playoff teams per region starting 2021....336 total playoff teams.....7 Divisions - 12 playoff teams per region |
|
|
|
Post by BellevueBuckeye on Sept 22, 2020 11:44:05 GMT -5
Not sure if it will actually happen or not, but when they announced this year's format it was entirely possible that some teams would enter the playoffs having played 0 regular season games. How do you seed an 0-0 team properly using harbins only? Also, I do know for sure there will be some teams entering the playoffs having only played 2-3 games. Now I know the harbin system has the divisors that take into account the number of games played when figuring out your average, and that it seems to work pretty well when comparing a team that only played 8 or 9 games to those that played 10....though I'm not sure how well that translates when comparing a team that played 2 games to one that played 6. I was under the impression that teams still had to get 2-3ish games played to enter playoffs. With everything flying around so much, I could have read something wrong. There's no limit mentioned in this OHSAA press release from early August. In fact it states that "it will not matter how many games each team has played leading up to the playoffs" www.ohsaa.org/Sports/News/ohsaa-adjusts-season-if-football-is-approved-by-governor160 |
|
|
|
Post by fbfan on Sept 22, 2020 12:01:07 GMT -5
Exactly. OHSAA needs to explain why they went away from the system that they have used for the last 50 years to include/exclude and rank teams for the playoffs. If they had, this wouldn't be in question now. Given that they have done this, they need to make everything as transparent as possible. Not sure if it will actually happen or not, but when they announced this year's format it was entirely possible that some teams would enter the playoffs having played 0 regular season games. How do you seed an 0-0 team properly using harbins only? Also, I do know for sure there will be some teams entering the playoffs having only played 2-3 games. Now I know the harbin system has the divisors that take into account the number of games played when figuring out your average, and that it seems to work pretty well when comparing a team that only played 8 or 9 games to those that played 10....though I'm not sure how well that translates when comparing a team that played 2 games to one that played 6. I don't think it will happen, but if it does, a 0-0 team hasn't earned anything and should be put last in my opinion. All you really would have is someone else's opinion, which is why they invented the harbin system. Which brings us back to why didn't they use the harbins to seed the teams? If all teams qualify, then not being able to schedule the games you want is not an excuse for not making the playoff. If coaches seeding is better than using the harbins, then why in normal circumstance don't they use the harbins to determine the top 8 in a region, then let the coaches seed? The logic doesn't make sense. |
|
|
|
Post by fanofthegame on Sept 22, 2020 12:06:53 GMT -5
They got rid of the eyeball test because it was flawed. Making the playoffs used to be based on sportswriters voting. There was an obvious bias toward big city schools and schools that had a tradition. I went to a school that has state championships and many deep playoff runs that in the 70’s went undefeated and didn’t make the playoffs because making the playoffs was based on polls/opinions. Someone is going to get hosed. Opinion Polls have never been part of the OHSAA playoff formula. They've been using the same basic computer point formula developed by Jack Harbin since 1972. Looking through the yearly computer point standings lists, I can only find 2 times they tweaked it (not counting adjusting the point values for wins vs. a certain division as new divisions were added): - in 1974 they stopped including level 3 points (which are now only used in tie breaking situations) - in 1993 they stopped ranking teams solely on a raw total of level 1 points plus level 2 points, and introduced a divisor to account for possible differences in the number games played for both L1 and L2 points, with the new official points total being a sum of those two averages. The reason so many undefeated teams missed the playoffs in the 70's was because of how few teams were allowed in. Here's a breakdown of playoff expansion history: 1972-1979.......12 total playoff teams.......3 Divisions - 1 playoff team per region 1980-1984.......40 total playoff teams.......5 Divisions - 2 playoff teams per region 1985-1993.......80 total playoff teams.......5 Divisions - 4 playoff teams per region 1994-1998.......96 total playoff teams.......6 Divisions - 4 playoff teams per region 1999-2012.......192 total playoff teams.....6 Divisions - 8 playoff teams per region 2013-2019.......224 total playoff teams.....7 Divisions - 8 playoff teams per region starting 2021....336 total playoff teams.....7 Divisions - 12 playoff teams per region I stand corrected. I was told the polls were included and that was why we had a stretch in the 70’s over four years I think we lost one game and made the playoffs 0 times. Hard to believe that those teams didn’t have the points. Our schedule usually includes one team our size and everyone else was bigger. I guess it shows how diluted things are now. |
|
