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MOAC 23-24
Dec 17, 2023 14:17:14 GMT -5
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Post by Big Lex Fan on Dec 17, 2023 14:17:14 GMT -5
Would have been nice to get that one last night but at the end of the day winning a fifth straight MOAC is goal number one. Regroup and get ready for a battle at River Valley this Thursday. I would hope Shelby’s goals are much higher. The MOAC in basketball has been pretty bad lately. The way its looking right now. It's Lex and Shelby that are tops in the district. Shelby is at Lex on the 30th. That should be an excellent preview what potentially will be a district final. Shelby and Lex should be working towards being better than the other by tournament time. Shelby is a very good team. But so is Lex. Both teams have a lot to work on the rest of the season starting with this week....
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 17, 2023 15:52:37 GMT -5
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Post by galionfan13 on Dec 17, 2023 15:52:37 GMT -5
After this coming week, the Tigers will be a threat to beat any team in the district
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Post by Big Lex Fan on Dec 17, 2023 17:07:03 GMT -5
After this coming week, the Tigers will be a threat to beat any team in the district Surely you jest!?!🤡
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Post by dude on Dec 17, 2023 23:46:32 GMT -5
Would have been nice to get that one last night but at the end of the day winning a fifth straight MOAC is goal number one. Regroup and get ready for a battle at River Valley this Thursday. I would hope Shelby’s goals are much higher. The MOAC in basketball has been pretty bad lately. I would hope so too, with so many returning players including a D1 committed player on that roster, an MOAC title for them is not much of a number one goal.
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Post by moacpops on Dec 18, 2023 9:54:56 GMT -5
The #1 goal for the Whippets should be an MOAC title, followed by a district title, regional title, and state title. The MOAC has been bad but a league championship is still a championship. Thursday night Shelby at R Valley is going to be a battle. Last year went 2 OT's. That game was the difference between the Vikings winning the MOAC and the Whippets winning the MOAC. 2 years ago the Whippets only MOAC loss was at Valley. After losing at Harding last week, R valley can't lose at home and fall 2 games behind SHS if they want to win the MOAC. I think this is the game of the year in the MOAC. A Shelby win and they cruise to another title after winning early season MOAC games at Harding and at R Valley.
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Post by dude on Dec 18, 2023 10:48:28 GMT -5
The #1 goal for the Whippets should be an MOAC title, followed by a district title, regional title, and state title. The MOAC has been bad but a league championship is still a championship. Thursday night Shelby at R Valley is going to be a battle. Last year went 2 OT's. That game was the difference between the Vikings winning the MOAC and the Whippets winning the MOAC. 2 years ago the Whippets only MOAC loss was at Valley. After losing at Harding last week, R valley can't lose at home and fall 2 games behind SHS if they want to win the MOAC. I think this is the game of the year in the MOAC. A Shelby win and they cruise to another title after winning early season MOAC games at Harding and at R Valley. This is basic logic for a team every year. This is an elite team and they have won the "bad" MOAC the previous 4 years in a row so this should not be a big task for a team loaded with talent and veterans. If my math is correct, this team has 8 players with an accumulated experience of 231 total varsity games before this season. Three seniors have 4 years of varsity experience.(154) Another senior has 3 years(28) and the final 4 players add 49 games of varsity experience.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Dec 18, 2023 12:04:37 GMT -5
Any dialogue about winning the MOAC is interpreted by me as Shelby's version of the NBA's In Season Tournament. Don't drop any games to River Valley and Marion Harding, and you get a neat trophy and some nets to cut down. It won't be a huge milestone for this team, but hey it's there so why not take it.
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Post by sweathog on Dec 18, 2023 13:03:32 GMT -5
OG 67 Shelby 63 Final Bruskotter had 36, but was limited in the 4th due to foul trouble. Hell, most of the Whippets were limited toward the end with foul trouble. Lol. Alex outplayed White, but didn’t have enough help down the stretch. White just kept hitting FT’s when Shelby had to foul. Good tournament-like game atmosphere and test for the Whippets early in the season. Bruskotter outplayed White, reasons behind this comment. What were some of the stats for the game? Heard his 4th foul was not to smart on his behalf.
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Post by moacpops on Dec 18, 2023 13:08:40 GMT -5
I agree the Whippets are loaded with talent and experience. They are everyones Super Bowl game in the MOAC. prediction: R Valley upsets the Whippets by 2 points. Why? 1.The Vikings beat Shelby during football season when they were expected to lose. 2,R Valley has been the toughest MOAC test for Shelby the last two years. 3.R Valley has the 2nd best player in the league to compete against Bruskotter. Carson Smith is also a D2 All-Ohioan. 4.R Valley must win and will play with desperation. 5.The Vikings have the small court, home court advantage. 6.The game falls between two "marquee games" for Shelby - Ottawa Glandorf last week and Lexington next week. 7. I don't want the MOAC race to be over on December 21. We need to have something to talk about on here. The rest of the Thursday games: Marion Harding @ Clear Fork - CF beat Pleasant for their first win of the year. That surprised me. Harding led Shelby at halftime and beat RV, both at home. Can Marion win on the road? I'll pick the Presidents by 10. Highland @ Galion - Galion beats OHS for the first time in 20 tries last week. Now they get a bad Highland team at home. The Tigers go into Christmas at 3-1 in the MOAC, tied for first if R Valley wins as I guessed. Galion by 15+. After the game, our 13 year old Galion friend posts that Galion is a state title contender! Pleasant @ Ontario - Pleasant is a mystery, playing close with R Valley but then losing by 9 to CF. Ontario gets win #1 last week - will that propel them to more W's or will they return to what posters on here expected with many L's? Give me the Spartans by 4.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Dec 18, 2023 15:27:06 GMT -5
OG 67 Shelby 63 Final Bruskotter had 36, but was limited in the 4th due to foul trouble. Hell, most of the Whippets were limited toward the end with foul trouble. Lol. Alex outplayed White, but didn’t have enough help down the stretch. White just kept hitting FT’s when Shelby had to foul. Good tournament-like game atmosphere and test for the Whippets early in the season. Bruskotter outplayed White, reasons behind this comment. What were some of the stats for the game? Heard his 4th foul was not to smart on his behalf. I felt the same way when I watched these two play, that Alex had a better game and is potentially the better player at this moment. White has a clear athleticism edge over Bruskotter, similar to how we would think of Ramsey and Lantz. Ohio State must look at the two and see more potential in White based on that, no faulting that logic. The skill difference is slight, but it felt as though Alex had a slightly better control of his game and what to do, how to attack the defense, and finished more plays. OG threw a box & one at Alex at some point, which speaks to the degree of defense he was receiving. I was sitting amongst a lot of Ottawans during the game and had chats with some afterwards. Any objective fan, at minimum, recognized that both players were 1A and 1B in some fashion. It reminded me of the regional game in 2020 when Shelby took on George Mangus and Lima Shawnee. Lots of talk going into the game about Mangus, but TJ Pugh really stood out in an undeniable way that night. For stats, Alex scored the literal first 20 points for Shelby. At some point, the score was something like 27-20 OG, and Alex accounted for all 20. (Sidenote, this is why we picked up this game no doubt. Shelby is not used to these high-level games, and we need our other guys to realize they have no reason to be scared of other top-notch teams, which I think was slowly discovered in the 2nd half. For OG, this one doesn't even crack their Top 5 most intense games of the past season possibly). Three point shooting by either team seemed exactly normal. No 2-18 or 8-15 nights for either squad based on my memory. The other thing that stood out to me was White's free throw shooting. Call it an off-night, but White took about 20-22 free throws and missed at least 8-10 of them. It was shocking to see happen. I've yet to see a free throw shooting display like that from Alex in a big-time game. Shelby @ RV last year or the Lex district game were some incredibly pressure filled games, and Alex was almost perfect from the line in moments where a miss meant game over. The fouls were interesting. I had an off-duty ref sitting next to me during the second half. I never found it sensible to make excuses out of bad calls. A HS game like this one probably has well over 100 possessions, and the majority of them contain mistakes that a ref had no bearing on. That said, there were instances where even the fan/ref next to me acknowledged some tricky calls for Shelby. To me, it was less that Alex picked up his fourth foul than it was that White had 1-2 plays where you could have called one on him. Shelby had 4/5 starters end the game with four fouls, and that absolutely mattered. You put ten different ref crews on this game, and there will be some versions where White gets that 4th on him or that 5th on Alex. It was close like that. Thing with Alex and his fouls is...he fouled out of the Lexington district game last year. I believe he had four fouls during that road RV game last season. It'd be nice if he could get away from that in big games.
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Post by 4 on Dec 20, 2023 8:01:52 GMT -5
Harding defeated Marysville 59-50 for a nice win. Marysville is a solid team and have a big going to Ashland, though I think he could play D1 and I know he did have interest early on. Was a pretty good game.
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Post by dude on Dec 20, 2023 8:32:36 GMT -5
I agree the Whippets are loaded with talent and experience. They are everyones Super Bowl game in the MOAC. prediction: R Valley upsets the Whippets by 2 points. Why? 1.The Vikings beat Shelby during football season when they were expected to lose. 2,R Valley has been the toughest MOAC test for Shelby the last two years. 3.R Valley has the 2nd best player in the league to compete against Bruskotter. Carson Smith is also a D2 All-Ohioan. 4.R Valley must win and will play with desperation. 5.The Vikings have the small court, home court advantage. 6.The game falls between two "marquee games" for Shelby - Ottawa Glandorf last week and Lexington next week. 7. I don't want the MOAC race to be over on December 21. We need to have something to talk about on here. The rest of the Thursday games: Marion Harding @ Clear Fork - CF beat Pleasant for their first win of the year. That surprised me. Harding led Shelby at halftime and beat RV, both at home. Can Marion win on the road? I'll pick the Presidents by 10. Highland @ Galion - Galion beats OHS for the first time in 20 tries last week. Now they get a bad Highland team at home. The Tigers go into Christmas at 3-1 in the MOAC, tied for first if R Valley wins as I guessed. Galion by 15+. After the game, our 13 year old Galion friend posts that Galion is a state title contender! Pleasant @ Ontario - Pleasant is a mystery, playing close with R Valley but then losing by 9 to CF. Ontario gets win #1 last week - will that propel them to more W's or will they return to what posters on here expected with many L's? Give me the Spartans by 4. Seeing how Harding was the only MOAC team to beat Shelby last year, I would say this statement is false.
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Post by dude on Dec 20, 2023 8:45:36 GMT -5
I felt the same way when I watched these two play, that Alex had a better game and is potentially the better player at this moment. White has a clear athleticism edge over Bruskotter, similar to how we would think of Ramsey and Lantz. Ohio State must look at the two and see more potential in White based on that, no faulting that logic. The skill difference is slight, but it felt as though Alex had a slightly better control of his game and what to do, how to attack the defense, and finished more plays. OG threw a box & one at Alex at some point, which speaks to the degree of defense he was receiving. I was sitting amongst a lot of Ottawans during the game and had chats with some afterwards. Any objective fan, at minimum, recognized that both players were 1A and 1B in some fashion. It reminded me of the regional game in 2020 when Shelby took on George Mangus and Lima Shawnee. Lots of talk going into the game about Mangus, but TJ Pugh really stood out in an undeniable way that night. For stats, Alex scored the literal first 20 points for Shelby. At some point, the score was something like 27-20 OG, and Alex accounted for all 20. (Sidenote, this is why we picked up this game no doubt. Shelby is not used to these high-level games, and we need our other guys to realize they have no reason to be scared of other top-notch teams, which I think was slowly discovered in the 2nd half. For OG, this one doesn't even crack their Top 5 most intense games of the past season possibly). Three point shooting by either team seemed exactly normal. No 2-18 or 8-15 nights for either squad based on my memory. The other thing that stood out to me was White's free throw shooting. Call it an off-night, but White took about 20-22 free throws and missed at least 8-10 of them. It was shocking to see happen. I've yet to see a free throw shooting display like that from Alex in a big-time game. Shelby @ RV last year or the Lex district game were some incredibly pressure filled games, and Alex was almost perfect from the line in moments where a miss meant game over. The fouls were interesting. I had an off-duty ref sitting next to me during the second half. I never found it sensible to make excuses out of bad calls. A HS game like this one probably has well over 100 possessions, and the majority of them contain mistakes that a ref had no bearing on. That said, there were instances where even the fan/ref next to me acknowledged some tricky calls for Shelby. To me, it was less that Alex picked up his fourth foul than it was that White had 1-2 plays where you could have called one on him. Shelby had 4/5 starters end the game with four fouls, and that absolutely mattered. You put ten different ref crews on this game, and there will be some versions where White gets that 4th on him or that 5th on Alex. It was close like that. Thing with Alex and his fouls is...he fouled out of the Lexington district game last year. I believe he had four fouls during that road RV game last season. It'd be nice if he could get away from that in big games. My guess would be that being a better athlete ranks high with college coaches as they will tune the skills. Every college roster has skill from D3 to D1 but the better athletes usually rise to the better D1 level. Look what Tanner Holden is doing for Wright State and couldn't do at Ohio State. Big difference in the Big Ten and Horizon . Good point about Mangas, who has had years of good success at Fairmont State while Pugh, to my knowledge, never played after high school.
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Post by dude on Dec 20, 2023 8:46:12 GMT -5
Harding defeated Marysville 59-50 for a nice win. Marysville is a solid team and have a big going to Ashland, though I think he could play D1 and I know he did have interest early on. Was a pretty good game. Marion is a real contender for the MOAC.
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Post by moacpops on Dec 20, 2023 11:06:19 GMT -5
Harding defeated Marysville 59-50 for a nice win. Marysville is a solid team and have a big going to Ashland, though I think he could play D1 and I know he did have interest early on. Was a pretty good game. Marion is a real contender for the MOAC. The (transfer/move-in) point guard from Olentangy has completely changed Marion. He is what Marion lacked.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Dec 20, 2023 13:09:10 GMT -5
I felt the same way when I watched these two play, that Alex had a better game and is potentially the better player at this moment. White has a clear athleticism edge over Bruskotter, similar to how we would think of Ramsey and Lantz. Ohio State must look at the two and see more potential in White based on that, no faulting that logic. The skill difference is slight, but it felt as though Alex had a slightly better control of his game and what to do, how to attack the defense, and finished more plays. OG threw a box & one at Alex at some point, which speaks to the degree of defense he was receiving. I was sitting amongst a lot of Ottawans during the game and had chats with some afterwards. Any objective fan, at minimum, recognized that both players were 1A and 1B in some fashion. It reminded me of the regional game in 2020 when Shelby took on George Mangus and Lima Shawnee. Lots of talk going into the game about Mangus, but TJ Pugh really stood out in an undeniable way that night. For stats, Alex scored the literal first 20 points for Shelby. At some point, the score was something like 27-20 OG, and Alex accounted for all 20. (Sidenote, this is why we picked up this game no doubt. Shelby is not used to these high-level games, and we need our other guys to realize they have no reason to be scared of other top-notch teams, which I think was slowly discovered in the 2nd half. For OG, this one doesn't even crack their Top 5 most intense games of the past season possibly). Three point shooting by either team seemed exactly normal. No 2-18 or 8-15 nights for either squad based on my memory. The other thing that stood out to me was White's free throw shooting. Call it an off-night, but White took about 20-22 free throws and missed at least 8-10 of them. It was shocking to see happen. I've yet to see a free throw shooting display like that from Alex in a big-time game. Shelby @ RV last year or the Lex district game were some incredibly pressure filled games, and Alex was almost perfect from the line in moments where a miss meant game over. The fouls were interesting. I had an off-duty ref sitting next to me during the second half. I never found it sensible to make excuses out of bad calls. A HS game like this one probably has well over 100 possessions, and the majority of them contain mistakes that a ref had no bearing on. That said, there were instances where even the fan/ref next to me acknowledged some tricky calls for Shelby. To me, it was less that Alex picked up his fourth foul than it was that White had 1-2 plays where you could have called one on him. Shelby had 4/5 starters end the game with four fouls, and that absolutely mattered. You put ten different ref crews on this game, and there will be some versions where White gets that 4th on him or that 5th on Alex. It was close like that. Thing with Alex and his fouls is...he fouled out of the Lexington district game last year. I believe he had four fouls during that road RV game last season. It'd be nice if he could get away from that in big games. My guess would be that being a better athlete ranks high with college coaches as they will tune the skills. Every college roster has skill from D3 to D1 but the better athletes usually rise to the better D1 level. Look what Tanner Holden is doing for Wright State and couldn't do at Ohio State. Big difference in the Big Ten and Horizon . Good point about Mangas, who has had years of good success at Fairmont State while Pugh, to my knowledge, never played after high school. Agreed. Hard to teach jumping and quickness compared to refining gameplay instinct. I have the opinion that it's usually better to be a big fish in a small pond if you can give yourself that luxury. Ohio State is a nice brand, but I'd rather see Alex on the court than on the bench in the college setting. Wright State has been doing well lately, so hardly a bad move in the grand scheme of things. Pugh was supposed to play at Findlay, but I suppose the college athlete lifestyle wasn't suited for what he wanted. Hard to knock that. The lifestyle of a college athlete can be punishing with the early wake-ups, travel, and course loads. One of my better friends at Providence was on the soccer team that eventually lost to UCLA in the final four when we were seniors. He respected me because I hated soccer as a true-blooded Shelbilly, and it was appreciated that I didn't treat him different due to being an athlete on a good team. In his words "I hate soccer too". I was never envious of how he had to burn the candle at both ends to keep his academics afloat. More than a few times I had to swoop in and help him grind out some assignments. A fun anecdote, one of his teammates, a German national, married into US citizenship with a girl in my accounting classes and played significant minutes for the US Soccer team during whatever tournament went on this summer. Mangus had to have been one of the most intelligent players I ever witnessed. The kid had the best off-ball movement I've ever seen. If you lost sight of him, you were in trouble. But when it came to taking a game into one's hands, Pugh was a better player. Too bad Shelby couldn't scrape that W out that night.
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Post by dude on Dec 20, 2023 21:02:06 GMT -5
Agreed. Hard to teach jumping and quickness compared to refining gameplay instinct. I have the opinion that it's usually better to be a big fish in a small pond if you can give yourself that luxury. Ohio State is a nice brand, but I'd rather see Alex on the court than on the bench in the college setting. Wright State has been doing well lately, so hardly a bad move in the grand scheme of things. Pugh was supposed to play at Findlay, but I suppose the college athlete lifestyle wasn't suited for what he wanted. Hard to knock that. The lifestyle of a college athlete can be punishing with the early wake-ups, travel, and course loads. One of my better friends at Providence was on the soccer team that eventually lost to UCLA in the final four when we were seniors. He respected me because I hated soccer as a true-blooded Shelbilly, and it was appreciated that I didn't treat him different due to being an athlete on a good team. In his words "I hate soccer too". I was never envious of how he had to burn the candle at both ends to keep his academics afloat. More than a few times I had to swoop in and help him grind out some assignments. A fun anecdote, one of his teammates, a German national, married into US citizenship with a girl in my accounting classes and played significant minutes for the US Soccer team during whatever tournament went on this summer. Mangus had to have been one of the most intelligent players I ever witnessed. The kid had the best off-ball movement I've ever seen. If you lost sight of him, you were in trouble. But when it came to taking a game into one's hands, Pugh was a better player. Too bad Shelby couldn't scrape that W out that night. If he wanted stats and a guarantee to be on the floor, he would go to a smaller school. OSU is a much bigger stage with much greater opportunities.
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Post by utsherman on Dec 21, 2023 21:29:00 GMT -5
Shelby 61 River Valley 60 Final
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Post by 4 on Dec 21, 2023 21:35:41 GMT -5
Heard RV got hosed.
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Post by dude on Dec 21, 2023 21:36:09 GMT -5
Shelby 61 River Valley 60 Final Terrible finish. Refs were a big factor and the OHSAA Comish was in the gym.
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 21, 2023 21:43:10 GMT -5
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Post by Big Lex Fan on Dec 21, 2023 21:43:10 GMT -5
Yes they did. The refs were terrible in the last seconds of the game.
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Post by utsherman on Dec 21, 2023 21:43:58 GMT -5
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 21, 2023 21:49:50 GMT -5
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Post by 4 on Dec 21, 2023 21:49:50 GMT -5
Galion survives Highland in OT 69-58 Harding beats Clear Forn 69-39 (32-4 4th quarter)
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 21, 2023 23:00:11 GMT -5
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Dec 21, 2023 23:00:11 GMT -5
All the talk with refs so I'll put this out there since I don't know what the ruling is. Apologies for the wordiness of this.
Bruskotter had two sets of two free throws in the last few seconds. The first set was with about 3-4 seconds, the latter were after the foul at 0.4 seconds (of which were the game tying/winning points).
On the earlier instance, Bruskotter made his first attempt. He then received the ball and started his shot routine for the second attempt before RV was granted a timeout to try to ice him. I didn't think much of it, but others around me made it sound like you can't call a timeout if the free throw shooter has the ball in his hands. Thoughts?
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 21, 2023 23:00:40 GMT -5
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Post by moacpops on Dec 21, 2023 23:00:40 GMT -5
It looks like a thriller at R Valley. Pleasant 60, Ontario 49
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Dec 21, 2023 23:09:35 GMT -5
There is a clip on Twitter by Rob McCurdy of the final, controversial foul call. It has the perfect angle for the play in question.
Like it or not, Ebert on RV was tangled up with Bruskotter. The replay shows Bruskotter had his right arm raised for the ball, while Ebert had both arms seemingly holding the left arm at chest level. In that moment, I'm not sure how many people could justify a defender having no arms raised to contest the inbound, even if the offensive player is part of the tangle. How does one arm tangle both of the defensive player's arms? If the ref saw that, it makes sense why the foul was called.
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Post by whippetfan on Dec 22, 2023 0:44:25 GMT -5
To answer a few of the comments to my earlier post a few days ago. Goal number one for any team should always be to win your league title, regardless of how good or bad the league is. And for them to possibly do it five years in a row is quite an accomplishment. Goal number two is a district title. Anything beyond that is a cherry on top.
As for tonight’s game, the refs did not determine the outcome. It’s so easy for all of us to use that excuse but there are enough possessions in a game where you can look back and say we took a bad shot, we turned the ball over, played bad defense, etc. that determined the outcome more than one or two bad calls. I personally thought the RV players were tugging at Bruskotter all night without any calls. But that’s the norm for him. If you watch him and his defender when he doesn’t have the ball it is pretty consistent every game. Kid is constantly pushed, pulled, scratched, held and still finds a way to make things happen. Great team win. Homan stepped up big in the first half with several key buckets. And Ramsey was fantastic guarding Carson Smith. He may have gotten double figures but he had to work hard for those 10 points. DeVito hit some clutch shots too. Great high school game.
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Post by dude on Dec 22, 2023 8:35:26 GMT -5
All the talk with refs so I'll put this out there since I don't know what the ruling is. Apologies for the wordiness of this. Bruskotter had two sets of two free throws in the last few seconds. The first set was with about 3-4 seconds, the latter were after the foul at 0.4 seconds (of which were the game tying/winning points). On the earlier instance, Bruskotter made his first attempt. He then received the ball and started his shot routine for the second attempt before RV was granted a timeout to try to ice him. I didn't think much of it, but others around me made it sound like you can't call a timeout if the free throw shooter has the ball in his hands. Thoughts? The first trip to the line was very questionable to me. The only contact I saw on Bruskotter was from him kicking his leg out to make contact on Smith. This could have been a no call. To the free-throw icing. The whistle happened when he received the ball but the general thought has always that an official needs to hear a call or see a play before blowing his whistle. It is safe to say the RV bench was calling for a timeout before the ball was given. Bruskotter get the ball and the refs whistle is a bang/bang play so we can assume they were calling for the TO prior to the shooter having it. IF a fan wants to argue the officials made mistakes, you have to consider the final whistle as one of them. There was a lot of contact and most of it initiated by the offense. The result was a 6'7" athlete who is going to play D1 college sports, ends up on the floor. He was not tripped, pushed to the floor or thrown to the floor. He was just jockeying for position and giving as much as he was getting. In his later years he is known for having a talent of drawing fouls, and has become pretty good at it. As you could see from his final two trips to the line in this game.
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marchmadness
All Conference
2021 Playoff Pick'em Champion
Posts: 322
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Post by marchmadness on Dec 22, 2023 8:46:30 GMT -5
FOUL. Good call. Foul 10x out of 10.
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marchmadness
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2021 Playoff Pick'em Champion
Posts: 322
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Post by marchmadness on Dec 22, 2023 9:05:58 GMT -5
And then I just watched the replay on OH report. The first foul with .8 is a bad call. Game should have ended there. There was no contact on the release and any contact that happened comes on the land which looked very suspect/incidental. So, that is where RV has their beef.
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