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Post by shelbyrr11 on Dec 22, 2023 10:36:17 GMT -5
The OH Report has a good angle on the final sequences as well. I watched it on there too (I had a bad angle for both of the fouls in person).
The first foul was absolutely suspect, but the second one looked pretty clear.
Thing is, a game like this will have 100+ possessions. If the game was close enough that the 100+Nth play mattered, then you can probably shoulder some responsibility on the losing end.
Carson Smith went 0fer from three with probably around 10 shot attempts. Ramsey did a good job making those 3s hard attempts, but we're also talking about a kid who I heard went 11-17 from 3 in RV's game against Jonathan Alder. The game had many places where both teams won and lost it.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Dec 22, 2023 10:48:59 GMT -5
I looked over Shelby's schedule again. Mainly because these road games so far have been stressful, and that made me curious.
Shelby sacrificed two home non-con games in order to take on OG and Findlay in those specific invites. While neutral courts overall, OG only has to go 30 minutes to Lima. Findlay is a 30 minute drive from OG. If Kenpom was viewing these games in his college basketball system, they'd be labeled as "semi-home" games for Shelby's opponents.
As for the other non-con games, Shelby is on the road against: Lex, Ashland, Mansfield, and Willard. Only Madison and Upper are home as far as this is concerned.
If there's any way to artificially boost the difficulty of games beyond the team you are competing with, that'd be the trick. I don't particularly mind it since this is the year to crank up the difficulty...but man is it a gauntlet.
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Post by dude on Dec 22, 2023 11:52:51 GMT -5
The OH Report has a good angle on the final sequences as well. I watched it on there too (I had a bad angle for both of the fouls in person). The first foul was absolutely suspect, but the second one looked pretty clear. Thing is, a game like this will have 100+ possessions. If the game was close enough that the 100+Nth play mattered, then you can probably shoulder some responsibility on the losing end. Carson Smith went 0fer from three with probably around 10 shot attempts. Ramsey did a good job making those 3s hard attempts, but we're also talking about a kid who I heard went 11-17 from 3 in RV's game against Jonathan Alder. The game had many places where both teams won and lost it. I do not think you say anything wrong in this post. Very suspect. Easy to say almost every game has 100+ possessions and the play can be lost in the first quarter. But the truth normally is the suspect foul was not a foul in the first quarter. I would also add that a very senior heavy team with loads of game experience and very high expectations struggled to beat a team whose best player was 0-8 from the three point line. Most local basketball fans would have predicted a double digit easy win for Shelby had they known ahead of time that Smith would shoot that.
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Post by dude on Dec 22, 2023 11:56:52 GMT -5
I looked over Shelby's schedule again. Mainly because these road games so far have been stressful, and that made me curious. Shelby sacrificed two home non-con games in order to take on OG and Findlay in those specific invites. While neutral courts overall, OG only has to go 30 minutes to Lima. Findlay is a 30 minute drive from OG. If Kenpom was viewing these games in his college basketball system, they'd be labeled as "semi-home" games for Shelby's opponents. As for the other non-con games, Shelby is on the road against: Lex, Ashland, Mansfield, and Willard. Only Madison and Upper are home as far as this is concerned. If there's any way to artificially boost the difficulty of games beyond the team you are competing with, that'd be the trick. I don't particularly mind it since this is the year to crank up the difficulty...but man is it a gauntlet. Lexington has been traveling to play OG at their actual home court for 8 years home/away. You can be sure a neutral site is nothing like their home court.
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 22, 2023 12:51:24 GMT -5
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Post by fanofthegame on Dec 22, 2023 12:51:24 GMT -5
Once the ball is handed to the free throw shooter it is not supposed to be taken back. If the time out is not called/acknowledged before the ball is handed to the player it is not supposed to be given. It the official did not acknowledge/give the time out the ball should not have been taken from the shooter.
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Post by sweathog on Dec 22, 2023 13:00:49 GMT -5
I looked over Shelby's schedule again. Mainly because these road games so far have been stressful, and that made me curious. Shelby sacrificed two home non-con games in order to take on OG and Findlay in those specific invites. While neutral courts overall, OG only has to go 30 minutes to Lima. Findlay is a 30 minute drive from OG. If Kenpom was viewing these games in his college basketball system, they'd be labeled as "semi-home" games for Shelby's opponents. As for the other non-con games, Shelby is on the road against: Lex, Ashland, Mansfield, and Willard. Only Madison and Upper are home as far as this is concerned. If there's any way to artificially boost the difficulty of games beyond the team you are competing with, that'd be the trick. I don't particularly mind it since this is the year to crank up the difficulty...but man is it a gauntlet. Lexington has been traveling to play OG at their actual home court for 8 years home/away. You can be sure a neutral site is nothing like their home court. Playing at Lima and Findlay in these 2 games is ridiculous! Does Shelby make any money off these 2 games, don't think so. Santa Claus can early for Shelby last night!!!
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Post by dude on Dec 22, 2023 13:06:34 GMT -5
Once the ball is handed to the free throw shooter it is not supposed to be taken back. If the time out is not called/acknowledged before the ball is handed to the player it is not supposed to be given. It the official did not acknowledge/give the time out the ball should not have been taken from the shooter. The timeout was being called prior to the player having the ball. We have all seen a football play clock read 00 before a whistle is blown but yet a timeout is given because the ref heard it being yelled prior to expiration. Many, many, many, free-throw shooters will have a ball taken from their hands during the course of this season by a seemingly late whistle or annoying late horn from the scorers table.
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 22, 2023 13:48:26 GMT -5
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Post by baldref on Dec 22, 2023 13:48:26 GMT -5
Gee, why did Smith go Ofer from 3 pt range? Just a bad night, right? I thought he was all-ohio. Normally stud players step up in big games. Or did a 10TH grader shut him down?
If anyone thinks Lima wasn't essentially a home game for OG, they obviously weren't there. I was and it was basically a home game environment.
OK to be a shelby hater, but the Shelby team won in a hostile environment against a good team last night. Officials did not determine that game the kids did.
There were head scratching fouls called throughout the game especially early in the game. Unless you have worn the stripes in such a game situation, you have no concept of bang-bang plays. Refs do best they can and are human. I urge you all to get a license and join in the fun.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Dec 22, 2023 14:40:49 GMT -5
I've been rooting for plenty of teams that lost on a subjective, tricky final call by the refs.
Usually, a little introspection says my cumulative grumblings about my team's play throughout the game add up to a greater cause for defeat than one loud "no!"
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Dec 22, 2023 14:47:58 GMT -5
Lexington has been traveling to play OG at their actual home court for 8 years home/away. You can be sure a neutral site is nothing like their home court. Playing at Lima and Findlay in these 2 games is ridiculous! Does Shelby make any money off these 2 games, don't think so. Santa Claus can early for Shelby last night!!! From a competitive standpoint, I'm ok playing "semi-road" games, especially when they are high level non-con and supposed to be challenging in the first place. If I'm going to be punched in the face, I'd rather it be in the regular season. From a financial standpoint, it's most definitely a net loss, but I doubt many Pittsburgh Pirates fans are proud that their team is one of the most profitable franchises in the MLB.
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Post by dude on Dec 22, 2023 15:01:52 GMT -5
Gee, why did Smith go Ofer from 3 pt range? Just a bad night, right? I thought he was all-ohio. Normally stud players step up in big games. Or did a 10TH grader shut him down? If anyone thinks Lima wasn't essentially a home game for OG, they obviously weren't there. I was and it was basically a home game environment. OK to be a shelby hater, but the Shelby team won in a hostile environment against a good team last night. Officials did not determine that game the kids did. There were head scratching fouls called throughout the game especially early in the game. Unless you have worn the stripes in such a game situation, you have no concept of bang-bang plays. Refs do best they can and are human. I urge you all to get a license and join in the fun. Smith was well defended. The Anyone who think Spartan arena has a home court feeling for OG has never been to the Supreme Court. 😆 Officials will play a role in the outcome of a game. Most just hope that an official’s whistle does not factor into the last play of a game.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Dec 22, 2023 15:11:30 GMT -5
Gee, why did Smith go Ofer from 3 pt range? Just a bad night, right? I thought he was all-ohio. Normally stud players step up in big games. Or did a 10TH grader shut him down?If anyone thinks Lima wasn't essentially a home game for OG, they obviously weren't there. I was and it was basically a home game environment.OK to be a shelby hater, but the Shelby team won in a hostile environment against a good team last night. Officials did not determine that game the kids did. There were head scratching fouls called throughout the game especially early in the game. Unless you have worn the stripes in such a game situation, you have no concept of bang-bang plays. Refs do best they can and are human. I urge you all to get a license and join in the fun. I agree with you, but I have some foot/sidenotes to lob onto your post. First bold: I think you might be thinking of Issaiah Ramsey as that main defender on Smith, the same one mostly assigned to Colin White. I think having to play Glenville and guarding an OSU football recruit makes a lot of these other basketball defensive assignments feel comparatively breezy for Ramsey. Either way, any viewer knew Smith was getting some hearty defensive pressure on most all of his shots. He absolutely didn't go 0fer without some reason. Second bold: Not only was it a near-home game, it was a gym that they play regular season & district games at. It's a disadvantage that Shelby signed up for, so I won't gripe on that. The OG fans are a special breed though. Playing in Lima was a gift as opposed to a true road game, but not by much. To suggest otherwise would be similar to thinking Shelby wouldn't travel in a swarm to a high-level neutral site football game being played in Mansfield. My mom's 1st cousin, a Shelby grad, is the Catholic priest for their parish. The story goes that even Father Rick was tossed from an OG game for being too boisterous.
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 22, 2023 16:09:02 GMT -5
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Post by moacpops on Dec 22, 2023 16:09:02 GMT -5
I watched the game today on the OH Report. I agree with the commentators and Shelby11. Ramsey was outstanding defensively last night guarding Carson Smith. I looked at Maxpreps from the last two years to see how Smith fared in previous matchups with Shelby. He averaged just under 20 ppg in the four games vs SHS in his sophomore and junior years. He is an outstanding player. Another outstanding player, Ramsey, had a better night. Rather than tearing down Smith, complimenting Ramsey would be more appropriate.
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 22, 2023 16:52:32 GMT -5
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Post by fanofthegame on Dec 22, 2023 16:52:32 GMT -5
Once the ball is handed to the free throw shooter it is not supposed to be taken back. If the time out is not called/acknowledged before the ball is handed to the player it is not supposed to be given. It the official did not acknowledge/give the time out the ball should not have been taken from the shooter. The timeout was being called prior to the player having the ball. We have all seen a football play clock read 00 before a whistle is blown but yet a timeout is given because the ref heard it being yelled prior to expiration. Many, many, many, free-throw shooters will have a ball taken from their hands during the course of this season by a seemingly late whistle or annoying late horn from the scorers table. That may be the case, but it’s not the rule. If the official doesn’t acknowledge the time out and blow the whistle before the ball is handed to the shooter or the scorers table hits the buzzer after the ball is handed to the shooter the player is supposed to be aloud to compete the free throw.
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 22, 2023 17:32:45 GMT -5
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Post by fanofthegame on Dec 22, 2023 17:32:45 GMT -5
Someone sent me a still picture of the last foul. The defender has his arm over Bruskotter’s left shoulder from behind and draped all the way across his upper chest. It looks like a head lock from behind. I wish I could post it here. It’s a foul.
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Post by dude on Dec 22, 2023 23:28:15 GMT -5
The timeout was being called prior to the player having the ball. We have all seen a football play clock read 00 before a whistle is blown but yet a timeout is given because the ref heard it being yelled prior to expiration. Many, many, many, free-throw shooters will have a ball taken from their hands during the course of this season by a seemingly late whistle or annoying late horn from the scorers table. That may be the case, but it’s not the rule. If the official doesn’t acknowledge the time out and blow the whistle before the ball is handed to the shooter or the scorers table hits the buzzer after the ball is handed to the shooter the player is supposed to be aloud to compete the free throw. You are almost right. The rule is clear and the officials make the determination when they heard the notification for a time out. In this case the ref determined he heard a request for a timeout before the shooter had the ball. The whistle happens after the fact. This is true for every instance of the whistle.
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Post by dude on Dec 22, 2023 23:34:25 GMT -5
Someone sent me a still picture of the last foul. The defender has his arm over Bruskotter’s left shoulder from behind and draped all the way across his upper chest. It looks like a head lock from behind. I wish I could post it here. It’s a foul. And a foul was called by the officials. Why complain?
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 22, 2023 23:45:54 GMT -5
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Post by fanofthegame on Dec 22, 2023 23:45:54 GMT -5
I’m not complaining. I’m providing information to people who are complaining. The picture I saw isn’t even legal in wrestling.
I would imagine there is some caveat in the rules book that says the ref and his whistle has final say at their discretion, but once a free throw shooter is handed the ball his routine is not supposed to be interrupted unless some rule has changed in the last few years.
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 23, 2023 11:10:44 GMT -5
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Post by whippetfan on Dec 23, 2023 11:10:44 GMT -5
The official that allowed the timeout after Bruskotter was handed the ball was standing by the scorers table and in easy ear shot of the RV coach. He more than likely couldn’t see if the shooter already had the ball. When the Shelby coaches questioned the other two officials under the basket he basically pawned it off on the other official and said it wasn’t his call. Bad move IMO by that official. He should have over ruled his fellow official and allowed the shooter to continue then do the timeout. But as others have said we are all human.
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 23, 2023 11:54:31 GMT -5
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Post by fanofthegame on Dec 23, 2023 11:54:31 GMT -5
I wasn’t judging. That happens frequently. I was just clarifying the rule.
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Post by dude on Dec 23, 2023 13:09:25 GMT -5
I’m not complaining. I’m providing information to people who are complaining. The picture I saw isn’t even legal in wrestling. I would imagine there is some caveat in the rules book that says the ref and his whistle has final say at their discretion, but once a free throw shooter is handed the ball his routine is not supposed to be interrupted unless some rule has changed in the last few years. Providing information and providing facts can be different. OK, maybe not a complaint but now you are exaggerating with the wrestling comment. That play can be found in most games every weekend. But it's not a focus of anyone. I would provide the information that an official hearing a request for a timeout will have a delayed whistle because of a human response, just like a whistle for a foul. Again I can say this timeout was being called before the player had the ball.
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Post by dude on Dec 23, 2023 13:22:33 GMT -5
The official that allowed the timeout after Bruskotter was handed the ball was standing by the scorers table and in easy ear shot of the RV coach. He more than likely couldn’t see if the shooter already had the ball. When the Shelby coaches questioned the other two officials under the basket he basically pawned it off on the other official and said it wasn’t his call. Bad move IMO by that official. He should have over ruled his fellow official and allowed the shooter to continue then do the timeout. But as others have said we are all human. It really comes down to your perception of the outcome. I have no horse in this race so the outcome is not a factor. The scorers table official was looking at the free throw shooter and the home team coach was gesturing for a timeout while the free throw ref still had the ball. The coach, while calling for a timeout ran onto the floor and tapped the scorers table ref on the side just as the ball hit the shooters hands. The whistle may have been delayed but it was a response to a called timeout at a proper time.
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 23, 2023 13:33:06 GMT -5
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Post by fanofthegame on Dec 23, 2023 13:33:06 GMT -5
I’m not complaining. I’m providing information to people who are complaining. The picture I saw isn’t even legal in wrestling. I would imagine there is some caveat in the rules book that says the ref and his whistle has final say at their discretion, but once a free throw shooter is handed the ball his routine is not supposed to be interrupted unless some rule has changed in the last few years. Providing information and providing facts can be different. OK, maybe not a complaint but now you are exaggerating with the wrestling comment. That play can be found in most games every weekend. But it's not a focus of anyone. I would provide the information that an official hearing a request for a timeout will have a delayed whistle because of a human response, just like a whistle for a foul. Again I can say this timeout was being called before the player had the ball. I wish I could post the picture. People were claiming it wasn’t a foul. In the picture captured from the video of the play the defender’s arm was in a position that if he had flexed his bicep completely his forearm would have gone completely across Bruskotter’s throat in choke hold. I think the fact of the matter is most people would consider that a foul. Nothing more, nothing less. I’m not faulting the ref. I never mentioned him. Someone early on asked what the official rule was and I was stating it.
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Post by dude on Dec 23, 2023 13:45:59 GMT -5
Providing information and providing facts can be different. OK, maybe not a complaint but now you are exaggerating with the wrestling comment. That play can be found in most games every weekend. But it's not a focus of anyone. I would provide the information that an official hearing a request for a timeout will have a delayed whistle because of a human response, just like a whistle for a foul. Again I can say this timeout was being called before the player had the ball. I wish I could post the picture. People were claiming it wasn’t a foul. In the picture captured from the video of the play the defender’s arm was in a position that if he had flexed his bicep completely his forearm would have gone completely across Bruskotter’s throat in choke hold. I think the fact of the matter is most people would consider that a foul. Nothing more, nothing less. I’m not faulting the ref. I never mentioned him. Someone early on asked what the official rule was and I was stating it. The video is available for all. Anyone discussing it has seen it. Most of the complaints I read was an argue the whistle that put Bruskotter on the line down 2 was the very poor call. Not the dead ball call down 1 with .4 on the clock.
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 23, 2023 19:23:17 GMT -5
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Post by galionfan13 on Dec 23, 2023 19:23:17 GMT -5
Another convincing win by the Tigers, three is a row. Every team but watch out this Tiger team is unstoppable. No team can stop #2 or #12. This team will continue to go very far this year. I don't see many more losses and they will even pull off many upsets.
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 23, 2023 21:48:39 GMT -5
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Post by Big Lex Fan on Dec 23, 2023 21:48:39 GMT -5
Ontario 46 Lexington 84
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Post by 419bossman on Dec 24, 2023 16:46:12 GMT -5
Games for the Week of 12/25-12/30
Monday December 25th Merry Christmas to All!!!
Wednesday December 27th Fredericktown at Clear Fork Harding vs. Lake Buena Vista(FL.) at the KSA Holiday Tournament(Orlando, FL.) Pleasant at Cardington Madison at Ontario
Thursday December 28th River Valley at Highland Harding vs. TBA at the KSA Holiday Tournament(Orlando, FL.)
Friday December 29th Clear Fork at Shelby Lucas at Galion Harding vs. TBA at the KSA Holiday Tournament(Orlando, FL.)
Saturday December 30th Highland at Cardington Shelby at Lexington
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 27, 2023 20:16:17 GMT -5
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Post by 4 on Dec 27, 2023 20:16:17 GMT -5
Harding defeats Lake Buena Vista (FL) 61-33
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 27, 2023 21:27:04 GMT -5
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Post by mrsteel on Dec 27, 2023 21:27:04 GMT -5
Ontario-68 Madison-60 F
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MOAC 23-24
Dec 27, 2023 21:51:54 GMT -5
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Post by moacpops on Dec 27, 2023 21:51:54 GMT -5
Fredericktown 53, CF 52 Pleasant 60, Cardington Lincoln 46
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