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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 12:19:46 GMT -5
So let's say you "ask" for current administration with a CC to volunteer, and they're willing. What's the process for initiation of that program? What if another teacher isn't comfortable with that approach, knowing that another teacher anonymously carries a firearm in the school? I would assume the whole of the staff would have to sign-off? Is it thrown on the ballet? It now seems as if this is POTUS's big solution to the problem. Oh, and he floated the idea of bonuses for these volunteers as well. Maybe the NRA can cover them? Ask every employee and see the response to current CC holders. So you are implying a teacher would not be comfortable with a co-worker, who holds a CC permit, to carry a firearm but having the school pay out major funds to security firm who would possibly provide a minimum wage stranger with a firearm? It is obvious you are against the NRA so no answer or solution given for this problem will be satisfying for you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 12:25:21 GMT -5
There are just to many questions for this to actually ever work and/or happen. I could be wrong. Something else that hasn’t been brought up. I think all of us that have had kids can say that children are very inquisitive. You know they will be asking the teachers with guns if they can see it and what not. That would get old. Would it be more scary having a loaded gun in schools at all times or the threat of a possible shooter? Like I said, to many questions That would be a good question for some parents of Parkland schools. I can imagine the answer you would get. I for one wish we could ask their football coach which he would rather deal with, a CC permitted teacher or an intruder with a weapon.
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Post by sportsjock on Feb 23, 2018 12:42:18 GMT -5
There are just to many questions for this to actually ever work and/or happen. I could be wrong. Something else that hasn’t been brought up. I think all of us that have had kids can say that children are very inquisitive. You know they will be asking the teachers with guns if they can see it and what not. That would get old. Would it be more scary having a loaded gun in schools at all times or the threat of a possible shooter? Like I said, to many questions That would be a good question for some parents of Parkland schools. I can imagine the answer you would get. I for one wish we could ask their football coach which he would rather deal with, a CC permitted teacher or an intruder with a weapon. What's more scary than the shooter/executioner walking up to a cowering student and shooting to victim, point blank in the head? I guess the off duty officer, entrusted as a security guard, cowardly waiting outside the school till the shooting subsided, felt the shooter was too scary for him to deal with.
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Post by sportsjock on Feb 23, 2018 12:45:29 GMT -5
I had no idea of the scope of schools already enlisting their teachers as CC in Ohio. 63 of 88 counties having schools with armed teachers is pretty significant. Can you imagine what that number will be in the not to distant future? After all the paranoia has been exhausted, I think most schools will be arming their teachers.....it work's.
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Post by moneyball on Feb 23, 2018 13:39:01 GMT -5
I had no idea of the scope of schools already enlisting their teachers as CC in Ohio. 63 of 88 counties having schools with armed teachers is pretty significant. Can you imagine what that number will be in the not to distant future? After all the paranoia has been exhausted, I think most schools will be arming their teachers.....it work's. You can't keep your head buried in the sand and think "It won't happen here". The majority of these counties have the leadership needed to implement practices and policies that would help deter and prevent this from happening now, and not reacting after a shooting occurs.
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Post by deathfromabove on Feb 23, 2018 13:58:22 GMT -5
Let me ask one question from all of you. If you were those teachers and you have a cc weapon on you can you look down on those sites and pull that trigger and kill somebody even if it is a kid. Can you look into that persons eyes and kill him. It is hard, I have seen battles, I have seen those faces, I have seen the aftermath of it. Believe me, it is hard, it is hard trying to forget what you have done, it is hard trying to get those faces out of my mind. I still see those faces after all these years, close to 45 years now, and I still can't get them out of my mind. Also who's to say you can pull that trigger. I have seen MEN freeze when the time comes to fire their weapons for the first time at somebody. It is hard to kill someone but only a crazy person can or someone who has been in combat can do that. Me, if it was my children I would want a professional guarding my kids not a teacher whose primary job is to teach. I say do not allow the teachers to be the ones to carry a weapon in the school, if you must have someone let it be a professional not an armature. Bighoss is right, don't let the teachers be responsible for this. They are there to teach our kids not to be an armed guard. Bighoss, I know these are not the right words you use but I think that you have come close to this.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 14:24:53 GMT -5
dfa, people do not get a CC permit for target practice.
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Post by fbfan on Feb 23, 2018 14:38:53 GMT -5
Let me ask one question from all of you. If you were those teachers and you have a cc weapon on you can you look down on those sites and pull that trigger and kill somebody even if it is a kid. Can you look into that persons eyes and kill him. It is hard, I have seen battles, I have seen those faces, I have seen the aftermath of it. Believe me, it is hard, it is hard trying to forget what you have done, it is hard trying to get those faces out of my mind. I still see those faces after all these years, close to 45 years now, and I still can't get them out of my mind. Also who's to say you can pull that trigger. I have seen MEN freeze when the time comes to fire their weapons for the first time at somebody. It is hard to kill someone but only a crazy person can or someone who has been in combat can do that. Me, if it was my children I would want a professional guarding my kids not a teacher whose primary job is to teach. I say do not allow the teachers to be the ones to carry a weapon in the school, if you must have someone let it be a professional not an armature. Bighoss is right, don't let the teachers be responsible for this. They are there to teach our kids not to be an armed guard. Bighoss, I know these are not the right words you use but I think that you have come close to this. Thank you for your service DFA. You present some thought provoking questions. I don't think anyone, soldier or teacher or anyone else really knows what he will do when it comes to what you describe, for the first time. We saw each end of the spectrum in this case. The professional whom you prefer to protect our young, did not do enough (he froze, to use your term). The amateur that you don't prefer, probably tried to do too much and paid the ultimate price. I think that the teacher acted instinctively to protect his students. If he had the training and means, I think he would have acted instinctively as well to take out the shooter. We'll never know for sure. I don't think anyone wants to "make" teachers take the responsibility for guarding our youth. Only those willing to accept it and train for it. Kind of like those wishing to serve and sacrifice for our country.....like you!!
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Post by utsherman on Feb 23, 2018 14:54:43 GMT -5
So let's say you "ask" for current administration with a CC to volunteer, and they're willing. What's the process for initiation of that program? What if another teacher isn't comfortable with that approach, knowing that another teacher anonymously carries a firearm in the school? I would assume the whole of the staff would have to sign-off? Is it thrown on the ballet? It now seems as if this is POTUS's big solution to the problem. Oh, and he floated the idea of bonuses for these volunteers as well. Maybe the NRA can cover them? Ask every employee and see the response to current CC holders. So you are implying a teacher would not be comfortable with a co-worker, who holds a CC permit, to carry a firearm but having the school pay out major funds to security firm who would possibly provide a minimum wage stranger with a firearm? It is obvious you are against the NRA so no answer or solution given for this problem will be satisfying for you. I'm not implying anything. I know teachers just as I'm sure you know them. The ones I've talked to don't prefer to have other teachers carrying on campus. And yes, I've also seen the articles and links to those teachers who would like to participate - including those that already do. And, yes, some do prefer to leave it to the professionals. I can't predict if they hire a minimum wage stranger with a firearm. What if they hire a retired police/military veteran with investment in that community instead? I'm simply asking questions per the other posters proposed solutions. You take issue with that? I don't have a funding solution. I would actually prefer that preventative measures be put in place to keep this kind of thing from happening in the first place. You must seem to think that only additional guns can solve this problem considering your bolded reference above - and that's your prerogative. More power to you. In terms of your reference to my being against the NRA, to each their own. And after listening to the folks they trotted up to speak at CPAC yesterday, well, draw your own conclusions.
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Post by deathfromabove on Feb 23, 2018 15:03:27 GMT -5
dfa, people do not get a CC permit for target practice. <iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_70760664" style="border-style: none; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_55911710" style="border-style: none; left: 1146px; top: -107px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_10343897" style="border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -13px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_35136490" style="border-style: none; left: 1146px; top: -13px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> Dude, I know that they don't get it for target practice but aiming your sites down the barrow of a weapon at someone is totally different. Can you pull that trigger at someone who might be staring at you at the same time or even he if his back is to you. There are people who can not do it no matter how big and strong they are. That is what I was trying to get across that it is hard and it sometimes eats at you if you can or even if you do it still eats at you. And please trust me I have done it and it still bothers me. Some men are still having a hard time coping with it and they may never be peace about it. I hope, no I pray that we as a nation would never have to have our teachers come to that situation and forever be scared for life. It's bad enough that these kids have to seen their classmates dead or dying but they will get over that for they did not shoot them and there is a difference in seeing and doing the killing.
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Post by sportsjock on Feb 23, 2018 15:35:22 GMT -5
dfa, people do not get a CC permit for target practice. <iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_70760664" style="border-style: none; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_55911710" style="border-style: none; left: 1146px; top: -107px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_10343897" style="border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -13px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_35136490" style="border-style: none; left: 1146px; top: -13px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> Dude, I know that they don't get it for target practice but aiming your sites down the barrow of a weapon at someone is totally different. Can you pull that trigger at someone who might be staring at you at the same time or even he if his back is to you. There are people who can not do it no matter how big and strong they are. That is what I was trying to get across that it is hard and it sometimes eats at you if you can or even if you do it still eats at you. And please trust me I have done it and it still bothers me. Some men are still having a hard time coping with it and they may never be peace about it. I hope, no I pray that we as a nation would never have to have our teachers come to that situation and forever be scared for life. It's bad enough that these kids have to seen their classmates dead or dying but they will get over that for they did not shoot them and there is a difference in seeing and doing the killing. I think the obvious answers is yes, yes and yes. Shooters always expose themslves immediately to what their diabolical objectives are. I think it would be a unanimous reaction to empty one's gun into the sub-human in their gun sights. The teacher on Fox News yesterday, was an attractive lady in her early 30's, who said she has been packing heat for several years at her H.S. in Utah. The first year she visited her local firing range daily and has since cut it down to several visits per month. She made it a point to shoot with various caliber hand guns, to get comfortable with firearms other than her own. She said she is very confident she would react very quickly and confidently to any situation that she may encounter. She also said she would have little hesitation, if the need should arise.
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Post by deathfromabove on Feb 23, 2018 15:39:34 GMT -5
Let me ask one question from all of you. If you were those teachers and you have a cc weapon on you can you look down on those sites and pull that trigger and kill somebody even if it is a kid. Can you look into that persons eyes and kill him. It is hard, I have seen battles, I have seen those faces, I have seen the aftermath of it. Believe me, it is hard, it is hard trying to forget what you have done, it is hard trying to get those faces out of my mind. I still see those faces after all these years, close to 45 years now, and I still can't get them out of my mind. Also who's to say you can pull that trigger. I have seen MEN freeze when the time comes to fire their weapons for the first time at somebody. It is hard to kill someone but only a crazy person can or someone who has been in combat can do that. Me, if it was my children I would want a professional guarding my kids not a teacher whose primary job is to teach. I say do not allow the teachers to be the ones to carry a weapon in the school, if you must have someone let it be a professional not an armature. Bighoss is right, don't let the teachers be responsible for this. They are there to teach our kids not to be an armed guard. Bighoss, I know these are not the right words you use but I think that you have come close to this. Thank you for your service DFA. You present some thought provoking questions. I don't think anyone, soldier or teacher or anyone else really knows what he will do when it comes to what you describe, for the first time. We saw each end of the spectrum in this case. The professional whom you prefer to protect our young, did not do enough (he froze, to use your term). The amateur that you don't prefer, probably tried to do too much and paid the ultimate price. I think that the teacher acted instinctively to protect his students. If he had the training and means, I think he would have acted instinctively as well to take out the shooter. We'll never know for sure. I don't think anyone wants to "make" teachers take the responsibility for guarding our youth. Only those willing to accept it and train for it. Kind of like those wishing to serve and sacrifice for our country.....like you!! fbfan, First thing first. You are welcome. I am glad that my message has made some people think on this subject. I applaud that the coach had the right mind to think first of saving as many kids as possible and in my mind he is a true HERO and if he was in the service he would be posthumously awarded with maybe a Silver Star or a CMH for valor. But that guard that might have been his first time he ever encounter something like this. You can never know what you might do in this situation. Each person is deferent and you may never know how you will reacted. I know of guys who has gone through training in the Army and have become marksman but when they were in their first firefight they were scared and not once fired their rifle. It has happen to a lot of soldiers and it will happen again. I am a firm believer of tough gun control laws and my weapon is register at our local sheriff dept. My sons were never aloud to touch my rifle and I have a trigger lock on it. My sons now are trained on firearms but none of them own a weapon nor do they want to at this time. Anyway I made a short speech into a long one but I am hoping and praying that we can find a solution to this and our kids can learn and play in peace.
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Post by sportsjock on Feb 23, 2018 15:40:05 GMT -5
I had no idea of the scope of schools already enlisting their teachers as CC in Ohio. 63 of 88 counties having schools with armed teachers is pretty significant. Can you imagine what that number will be in the not to distant future? After all the paranoia has been exhausted, I think most schools will be arming their teachers.....it work's. You can't keep your head buried in the sand and think "It won't happen here". The majority of these counties have the leadership needed to implement practices and policies that would help deter and prevent this from happening now, and not reacting after a shooting occurs. I think it can happen at virtually every school in this country, no matter how prepared they may feel they are. Kingmartinez thinks differently however. His recent post: "You guys don't have to worry about this (staff carrying guns) - it ain't happening in our area. SE/SW Ohio or very rural schools, maybe but not around here."
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Post by utsherman on Feb 23, 2018 15:48:23 GMT -5
You can't keep your head buried in the sand and think "It won't happen here". The majority of these counties have the leadership needed to implement practices and policies that would help deter and prevent this from happening now, and not reacting after a shooting occurs. I think it can happen at virtually every school in this country, no matter how prepared they may feel they are. Kingmartinez thinks differently however. His recent post: "You guys don't have to worry about this (staff carrying guns) - it ain't happening in our area. SE/SW Ohio or very rural schools, maybe but not around here." In fairness to Kingmartinez, he corrected his post to state that he doesn't think 'staff carrying guns' will happen around here. Not the actual acts of violence.
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Post by deathfromabove on Feb 23, 2018 15:55:49 GMT -5
<iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_70760664" style="border-style: none; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_55911710" style="border-style: none; left: 1146px; top: -107px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_10343897" style="border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -13px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="24.22" height="2.92" id="MoatPxIOPT0_35136490" style="border-style: none; left: 1146px; top: -13px; width: 24.22px; height: 2.92px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> Dude, I know that they don't get it for target practice but aiming your sites down the barrow of a weapon at someone is totally different. Can you pull that trigger at someone who might be staring at you at the same time or even he if his back is to you. There are people who can not do it no matter how big and strong they are. That is what I was trying to get across that it is hard and it sometimes eats at you if you can or even if you do it still eats at you. And please trust me I have done it and it still bothers me. Some men are still having a hard time coping with it and they may never be peace about it. I hope, no I pray that we as a nation would never have to have our teachers come to that situation and forever be scared for life. It's bad enough that these kids have to seen their classmates dead or dying but they will get over that for they did not shoot them and there is a difference in seeing and doing the killing. I think the obvious answers is yes, yes and yes. Shooter always expose themslves immediately to what their diabolical objectives are. I think it would be a unanimous reaction to empty one's gun into the sub-human in their gun sights. The teacher on Fox News yesterday, was an attractive lady in her early 30's, who said she has been packing heat for several years at her H.S. in Utah. The first year she visited her local firing range daily and has since cut it down to several visits per month. She made it a point to shoot with various caliber hand guns, to get comfortable with firearms other than here own. She said she is very confident she would react very quickly and confidently to any situation that she may encounter. She also said she would have little hesitation, if the need should arise. Sportsjock, I hope she would never have to find out if it ever arise but I have seen and heard of soldiers who have said the same thing but the first time some have frozen up and so scare that they s*** their pants. I was very scared the first time I did and yes I even filled my pants up but you still don't know if you can pull that trigger the first time or not until it happens. I still carry that scar in my mine even today. I don't think if I would ever get rid of that image or not. Anybody can say that they would not hesitate but I hope she would never have to find out. We all need to pray that our country can get itself straight and we all can live in peace again.
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Post by sportsjock on Feb 23, 2018 21:30:45 GMT -5
I think the obvious answers is yes, yes and yes. Shooter always expose themslves immediately to what their diabolical objectives are. I think it would be a unanimous reaction to empty one's gun into the sub-human in their gun sights. The teacher on Fox News yesterday, was an attractive lady in her early 30's, who said she has been packing heat for several years at her H.S. in Utah. The first year she visited her local firing range daily and has since cut it down to several visits per month. She made it a point to shoot with various caliber hand guns, to get comfortable with firearms other than here own. She said she is very confident she would react very quickly and confidently to any situation that she may encounter. She also said she would have little hesitation, if the need should arise. Sportsjock, I hope she would never have to find out if it ever arise but I have seen and heard of soldiers who have said the same thing but the first time some have frozen up and so scare that they s*** their pants. I was very scared the first time I did and yes I even filled my pants up but you still don't know if you can pull that trigger the first time or not until it happens. I still carry that scar in my mine even today. I don't think if I would ever get rid of that image or not. Anybody can say that they would not hesitate but I hope she would never have to find out. We all need to pray that our country can get itself straight and we all can live in peace again. I fully understand what you're saying and appreciate the agony you had to endure in through your initial inexperience.
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Post by sportsjock on Feb 23, 2018 21:35:00 GMT -5
I think it can happen at virtually every school in this country, no matter how prepared they may feel they are. Kingmartinez thinks differently however. His recent post: "You guys don't have to worry about this (staff carrying guns) - it ain't happening in our area. SE/SW Ohio or very rural schools, maybe but not around here." In fairness to Kingmartinez, he corrected his post to state that he doesn't think 'staff carrying guns' will happen around here. Not the actual acts of violence. That sounds very reasonable. I think most of us would be a bit surprised if the truth were revealed as to the extent of CC teachers in our particular area or school district. I know I was quite surprised to learn the number of districts that have taken that big step to harden their defenses, statewide.
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Post by moneyball on Feb 24, 2018 6:17:04 GMT -5
In fairness to Kingmartinez, he corrected his post to state that he doesn't think 'staff carrying guns' will happen around here. Not the actual acts of violence. That sounds very reasonable. I think most of us would be a bit surprised if the truth were revealed as to the extent of CC teachers in our particular area or school district. I know I was quite surprised to learn the number of districts that have taken that big step to harden their defenses, statewide. I like the idea that the Eric county Sheriff's office and Edison Schools have done, opened a substation at the school. These means a larger presence of police on site more often. I think ideas like this along with qualified teachers carrying (cc) is a good start to deter. Digging deeper, I think those kids in need of additional help need to be identified and helped. Mental health is an issue that pushes people to some of the most horrific crimes imaginable and many times it can be prevented with the right staff that is trained in identifying these individuals and working with them, the school and the parents to get them back on track.
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Post by sportsjock on Feb 24, 2018 7:13:22 GMT -5
That sounds very reasonable. I think most of us would be a bit surprised if the truth were revealed as to the extent of CC teachers in our particular area or school district. I know I was quite surprised to learn the number of districts that have taken that big step to harden their defenses, statewide. I like the idea that the Eric county Sheriff's office and Edison Schools have done, opened a substation at the school. These means a larger presence of police on site more often. I think ideas like this along with qualified teachers carrying (cc) is a good start to deter. Digging deeper, I think those kids in need of additional help need to be identified and helped. Mental health is an issue that pushes people to some of the most horrific crimes imaginable and many times it can be prevented with the right staff that is trained in identifying these individuals and working with them, the school and the parents to get them back on track.Students need to be very involved in the identifying process. The trained professionals are totally reliant on student cooperation and assistance in identifying situations that may pose a potential threat to school safety and well being. I think the spector of uniformed security can become a bit overwhelming at some point. Extreme police presence is not what should be conveyed in an environment that should be geared to an educational atmosphere. That's one of the benefits of anonymous faculty staff with CC.
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Post by moneyball on Feb 24, 2018 9:58:27 GMT -5
I like the idea that the Eric county Sheriff's office and Edison Schools have done, opened a substation at the school. These means a larger presence of police on site more often. I think ideas like this along with qualified teachers carrying (cc) is a good start to deter. Digging deeper, I think those kids in need of additional help need to be identified and helped. Mental health is an issue that pushes people to some of the most horrific crimes imaginable and many times it can be prevented with the right staff that is trained in identifying these individuals and working with them, the school and the parents to get them back on track.Students need to be very involved in the identifying process. The trained professionals are totally reliant on student cooperation and assistance in identifying situations that may pose a potential threat to school safety and well being. I think the spector of uniformed security can become a bit overwhelming at some point. Extreme police presence is not what should be conveyed in an environment that should be geared to an educational atmosphere. That's one of the benefits of anonymous faculty staff with CC. Doesn't matter to me what they look like or that their presence is overwhelming. Try telling a parent that has to bury their child we did nothing, all schools are at risk. Not trying to argue but something is better than nothing and Erie County is on to something here. Combination, get staffed trained to identify mental health issues and get real help for these kids, police substation and cc staff. There are staff members that add to the pressure kids go through on a daily basis and they need weeded out too, every school has one or two.
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Post by galion on Feb 24, 2018 14:20:43 GMT -5
It's a shame that so many are blind to all of the NRA funded propaganda out there. Why does the solution for every problem always involve more guns? Why are they opposed to age limits or background checks for ALL purchases? Oh, that's right because our safety and that of our children are less important than the profit margins for the weapons dealers/manufacturers that they ultimately represent. It's really sickening. This latest incident involved a kid who was legally able to purchase a firearm. That's not a school safety failure. That's a National safety crisis. If he opened up in a mall would the answer then be a CC for every mall santa? If he opened up in a church should the deacons and preachers and choir members start packing? But apparently him not being able to buy the gun in the first place is not a viable option. Has the NRA/gun manufacturers lobby not bled us dry enough both literally and figuratively yet?
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Post by sportsjock on Feb 24, 2018 14:41:09 GMT -5
What good did it do to have 'school resource officers' at Columbine, Sandyhook, Red Lake Indian Reservation H.S., Stockton, Calif. or Jonesboro Middle School? How did all those massacres work out for us?....but still, the paranoia of allowing our teachers to have CC continues among some.
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Post by galion on Feb 24, 2018 15:06:21 GMT -5
So if a trained professional can't stop it an untrained civilian can? Sounds kind of stupid when you say it out loud. The only solution that's going to work is not letting the disturbed individual gain access to the firearm in the first place. More often than not these people don't care if they survive or not. Oftentimes they don't intend to. So do you really think that whether or not a couple of armed teachers are going to deter them? It's not paranoia, bringing guns on campuses doesn't solve the problem. It's like buckling your seatbelt on an airplane. Sure it might make you feel better but if you go into the ground nose first you're just as dead either way. Fact is once the kid has the gun in the building it's too late. This latest one was over in 3 minutes. Unless, he was right outside your door you're not getting there in time. Even if he was you still have to assess the situation, ready your weapon, and pray to God that you can locate the shooter in the crowd of fleeing students before he locates you. Good luck with that.
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Post by sportsjock on Feb 24, 2018 17:00:45 GMT -5
So if a trained professional can't stop it an untrained civilian can? Sounds kind of stupid when you say it out loud. The only solution that's going to work is not letting the disturbed individual gain access to the firearm in the first place. More often than not these people don't care if they survive or not. Oftentimes they don't intend to. So do you really think that whether or not a couple of armed teachers are going to deter them? It's not paranoia, bringing guns on campuses doesn't solve the problem. It's like buckling your seatbelt on an airplane. Sure it might make you feel better but if you go into the ground nose first you're just as dead either way. Fact is once the kid has the gun in the building it's too late. This latest one was over in 3 minutes. Unless, he was right outside your door you're not getting there in time. Even if he was you still have to assess the situation, ready your weapon, and pray to God that you can locate the shooter in the crowd of fleeing students before he locates you. Good luck with that. It's about being in the right place at the right time and it's a matter of resolve. The teachers and administration have vested interest in the safety of their students, and as we witnessed time and time again, willing to put their own lives on the line for their students. Now, it is being revealed, not only did the deputy sheriff cowardly, remain outside while the shooting and dying was occurring, but the most recent disclosure is; three other deputies failed to enter the building during the heat of the assault......shameful! We can talk about 'what-if's all day long, but the fact remains, somehow, someway, a deadly shooter got into that building. Yes, I truly believe CC faculty staff could and would take the offensive on a shooter and ultimately be successful, saving countless lives. This deadly slaughter was over in 3 minutes, which magnifies the absolute necessity of instantaneous response, because every second wasted is precious, innocent lives lost. As in a number of Ohio schools today, they have a good percentage of the faculty with CC, which most likely covers all areas of the building(s), ensuring a quick and immediate response to neutralize the deadly shooter.
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Post by fbfan on Feb 24, 2018 17:18:51 GMT -5
It's a shame that so many are blind to all of the NRA funded propaganda out there. Why does the solution for every problem always involve more guns? Why are they opposed to age limits or background checks for ALL purchases? Oh, that's right because our safety and that of our children are less important than the profit margins for the weapons dealers/manufacturers that they ultimately represent. It's really sickening. This latest incident involved a kid who was legally able to purchase a firearm. That's not a school safety failure. That's a National safety crisis. If he opened up in a mall would the answer then be a CC for every mall santa? If he opened up in a church should the deacons and preachers and choir members start packing? But apparently him not being able to buy the gun in the first place is not a viable option. Has the NRA/gun manufacturers lobby not bled us dry enough both literally and figuratively yet? All the NRA does is counterbalance the opposing organizations that want to solve every problem by banning more guns. The same arguments that are hashed back and forth by everyone every time there is a shooting apply here, so I see no need to debate it here. Everyone is going to have their opinion. I will say that you are wrong about the shooter. He was/is an adult, not under any legal disability, exercising his constitutionally protected right to make a legal purchase of a legal firearm. The failure was all of the warnings not being heeded by the authorities, from the school all the way up to the FBI, and not putting him under a legal disability. Why should other law abiding citizens have their rights infringed upon because the authorities did not do their job? You should get used to the idea of school personnel being armed. It's going to happen (it already has in some schools). Trump has said he will support ban on bump stocks, strengthen background checks, and will consider changing the age requirement. Trump is a negotiator. You don't really think he is going to **** off the NRA without getting something in return do you? Oh, and by the way, there are some "deacons and preachers" that do pack because of threats against them.
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Post by galion on Feb 24, 2018 17:59:28 GMT -5
So if a trained professional can't stop it an untrained civilian can? Sounds kind of stupid when you say it out loud. The only solution that's going to work is not letting the disturbed individual gain access to the firearm in the first place. More often than not these people don't care if they survive or not. Oftentimes they don't intend to. So do you really think that whether or not a couple of armed teachers are going to deter them? It's not paranoia, bringing guns on campuses doesn't solve the problem. It's like buckling your seatbelt on an airplane. Sure it might make you feel better but if you go into the ground nose first you're just as dead either way. Fact is once the kid has the gun in the building it's too late. This latest one was over in 3 minutes. Unless, he was right outside your door you're not getting there in time. Even if he was you still have to assess the situation, ready your weapon, and pray to God that you can locate the shooter in the crowd of fleeing students before he locates you. Good luck with that. It's about being in the right place at the right time and it's a matter of resolve. The teachers and administration have vested interest in the safety of their students, and as we witnessed time and time again, willing to put their own lives on the line for their students. Now, it is being revealed, not only did the deputy sheriff cowardly, remain outside while the shooting and dying was occurring, but the most recent disclosure is; three other deputies failed to enter the building during the heat of the assault......shameful! We can talk about 'what-if's all day long, but the fact remains, somehow, someway, a deadly shooter got into that building. Yes, I truly believe CC faculty staff could and would take the offensive on a shooter and ultimately be successful, saving countless lives. This deadly slaughter was over in 3 minutes, which magnifies the absolute necessity of instantaneous response, because every second wasted is precious, innocent lives lost. As in a number of Ohio schools today, they have a good percentage of the faculty with CC, which most likely covers all areas of the building(s), ensuring a quick and immediate response to neutralize the deadly shooter. You must literally believe anything you hear if it come from the right propaganda source. Think about it for a second. In 3 minutes not only did a security guard make it clear over from another building but 3 other deputies magically morphed onto the scene as well. Unbelievable.
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Post by galion on Feb 24, 2018 18:03:10 GMT -5
It's a shame that so many are blind to all of the NRA funded propaganda out there. Why does the solution for every problem always involve more guns? Why are they opposed to age limits or background checks for ALL purchases? Oh, that's right because our safety and that of our children are less important than the profit margins for the weapons dealers/manufacturers that they ultimately represent. It's really sickening. This latest incident involved a kid who was legally able to purchase a firearm. That's not a school safety failure. That's a National safety crisis. If he opened up in a mall would the answer then be a CC for every mall santa? If he opened up in a church should the deacons and preachers and choir members start packing? But apparently him not being able to buy the gun in the first place is not a viable option. Has the NRA/gun manufacturers lobby not bled us dry enough both literally and figuratively yet? All the NRA does is counterbalance the opposing organizations that want to solve every problem by banning more guns. The same arguments that are hashed back and forth by everyone every time there is a shooting apply here, so I see no need to debate it here. Everyone is going to have their opinion. I will say that you are wrong about the shooter. He was/is an adult, not under any legal disability, exercising his constitutionally protected right to make a legal purchase of a legal firearm. The failure was all of the warnings not being heeded by the authorities, from the school all the way up to the FBI, and not putting him under a legal disability. Why should other law abiding citizens have their rights infringed upon because the authorities did not do their job? You should get used to the idea of school personnel being armed. It's going to happen (it already has in some schools). Trump has said he will support ban on bump stocks, strengthen background checks, and will consider changing the age requirement. Trump is a negotiator. You don't really think he is going to wee wee off the NRA without getting something in return do you? Oh, and by the way, there are some "deacons and preachers" that do pack because of threats against them. Just wait and see what happens when armed school personnel mistakenly assess a situation and use deadly force against an unarmed student. I guess then we'll start arming the students to protect them from the teachers?
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Post by sportsjock on Feb 24, 2018 18:41:57 GMT -5
It's about being in the right place at the right time and it's a matter of resolve. The teachers and administration have vested interest in the safety of their students, and as we witnessed time and time again, willing to put their own lives on the line for their students. Now, it is being revealed, not only did the deputy sheriff cowardly, remain outside while the shooting and dying was occurring, but the most recent disclosure is; three other deputies failed to enter the building during the heat of the assault......shameful! We can talk about 'what-if's all day long, but the fact remains, somehow, someway, a deadly shooter got into that building. Yes, I truly believe CC faculty staff could and would take the offensive on a shooter and ultimately be successful, saving countless lives. This deadly slaughter was over in 3 minutes, which magnifies the absolute necessity of instantaneous response, because every second wasted is precious, innocent lives lost. As in a number of Ohio schools today, they have a good percentage of the faculty with CC, which most likely covers all areas of the building(s), ensuring a quick and immediate response to neutralize the deadly shooter. You must literally believe anything you hear if it come from the right propaganda source. Think about it for a second. In 3 minutes not only did a security guard make it clear over from another building but 3 other deputies magically morphed onto the scene as well. Unbelievable. Right from the mouth of the Broward County sheriff. That's good enough for me.
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Post by sportsjock on Feb 24, 2018 18:51:52 GMT -5
All the NRA does is counterbalance the opposing organizations that want to solve every problem by banning more guns. The same arguments that are hashed back and forth by everyone every time there is a shooting apply here, so I see no need to debate it here. Everyone is going to have their opinion. I will say that you are wrong about the shooter. He was/is an adult, not under any legal disability, exercising his constitutionally protected right to make a legal purchase of a legal firearm. The failure was all of the warnings not being heeded by the authorities, from the school all the way up to the FBI, and not putting him under a legal disability. Why should other law abiding citizens have their rights infringed upon because the authorities did not do their job? You should get used to the idea of school personnel being armed. It's going to happen (it already has in some schools). Trump has said he will support ban on bump stocks, strengthen background checks, and will consider changing the age requirement. Trump is a negotiator. You don't really think he is going to wee wee off the NRA without getting something in return do you? Oh, and by the way, there are some "deacons and preachers" that do pack because of threats against them. Just wait and see what happens when armed school personnel mistakenly assess a situation and use deadly force against an unarmed student. I guess then we'll start arming the students to protect them from the teachers? The alternative is to allow another massacre of 17 innocent people, because some have a paranoia against guns, even in the hands of the good guys. We now know H.S. faculties have been practicing CC for many years now, all across Ohio and across this country. The fear mongering from left minded thinkers is now becoming weaker, as common sense approach to this national threat is prevailing on an ever growing move by school districts across this great land.
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Post by galion on Feb 24, 2018 19:20:18 GMT -5
Tell me the more likely scenario. A nutcase entering the school with an assault weapon or some smartass kid bringing a toy gun to school and pointing it at people. We all know how that second scenario turned out in Cleveland. Are you telling me that a teacher with a CC and little to no training won't make the same mistake as a trained professional?
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