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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 21, 2016 21:24:04 GMT -5
WF most kids today don't like to be hit period. Not the same today as when we played. AND there most definitely has been kids on the soccer field that could of contributed on the football field too. Its all how you develop over the few years you put into a sport. 24 kids on varsity soccer and another 12 on JV is a pretty good chunk out of the student population. Even that huge band has a bunch of good sized kids. The Freshman team lost a lot of players from last year that didn't go out for some reason or the other. I know a few thought Hawkins would be to hard nosed. Looking at the better teams in the NOL, Ontario just isn't as good. They pretty much play like they did when they were in MS. Hawkins has a new system and the offense this year was pretty simple. Our QB runs well but isn't too good of a passer. The freshman QB can throw a decent pass at times, but isn't real strong yet. I think our defense was decent this year, but was on the field way too much. The offense couldn't move people against the better defenses. The good to very good teams have a lot of kids who like to hit or they wouldn't be good. Where do you suppose the thousands of college football teams in the country get the kids that like to hit? I don't agree about soccer. I didn't say there weren't any soccer players that could have been good football players. Several come to mine, but less than 10. THE question is, would they have liked to hit or be hit. Have you watched this year's Varsity and JV soccer teams? No football players of any worth. Too small, not that fast. Don't tell me there are kids in the band that like to hit or be hit. BtW, the bad is not "huge", it used to be over 200. Like to hit or be hit is a MUST, to be a decent football player. I agree Ontario is not a good football team. What I don't get is who in the hell on here said they were? Our QB didn't play football his Freshman and Sophomore years and he's the best we have. Even the kid who transferred to Senior wouldn't be better. That's an exaggeration, OBVIOUSLY the upperclassmen play better than the did in MS, but with better coaching they could be playing much better. The past 2 coaching staffs didn't develop players.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 21, 2016 21:41:04 GMT -5
I keep seeing references to last years defense. If my math is right based on the stats above. This defense has given up only 27 fewer point thru nine games than last years. Anybody have info on forced turnovers, which would also help One has to look at more than "math". IMO Sandusky, Shelby and Norwalk's offenses are better than they were last year. They improved more than Ontario's defense improved. If you want to do some "math" look up what those 3 teams scored last year. Even that "math" will be skewed by the insane offensive explosion in the Shelby/Bellevue game last year.
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Post by footballer on Oct 21, 2016 21:55:33 GMT -5
I agree that math alone isn't enough. That's why I suggested also looking at other factors, like forced turnovers.
Secondly, I don't think anyone is saying they are good. I think the argument is about how much, if at all, they have improved.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 21, 2016 22:15:40 GMT -5
The first 2 years were in the NCC, 6 games below .500 in the NOL. IMO there can be a losing culture on 5-5 and 6-4 teams. Enough talent to be 7-3 or 8-2, but don't know how to win. Don't know how to play with a lead. Don't know how to put their foot on the opponents throat and choke the life out them. Lose concentration, think they have it made with a lead and make dumb mistakes. Losing culture leads to those things. I played on 10-0 and 9-1 teams, that didn't have a single player go on to college to play football. Not real big, not fast. Fundamentally sound, very intelligent, made very few mistakes, knew how to win, knew how to win BIG, hated to lose. A true winning culture can overcome shortcomings. Last year's 2-8 team had THE worst defense I've ever seen at Ontario. MANY times I saw a defensive player standing in direct line of a ball carrier and made NO attempt to even slow him down, just stood there and let him run past. That is playing scared, that permeates a team. THAT culture is VERY difficult to change overnight. I see you have no clue about soccer teams in general and Ontario's soccer team specifically. First of all, some parents won't allow their son's to play football due to concussions and worse, but are fine with them playing soccer. Most kids who choose soccer on their own over football don't like to hit or be hit. Ontario's current varsity and JV soccer teams don't have a single kid who could contribute on Ontario's varsity or JV football teams. The majority are 5-7 155, quick, not real fast kids who've player soccer since they were in the first grade. Thinking back over the history of Ontario Soccer I can only think of 5 players who could have been above average football players. Only 2 who would have been very good. No great football players play soccer unless mommy and daddy won't let them play football. Willard, I agree that the soccer team has no effect on taking away talent from football. Let's talk about the football team now. Surely you must see this team didn't progress on all levels. This o line is almost as bad as the defence was bad last year. They can't move people, they arnt aggressive, and some are way undersized. The secondary is pitiful and was constantly being burned by pretty much everyone this year. Our recievers are super inconsistent (catching, blocking...) and there is no dominant threat besides maybe 2(again inconsistent) that we can throw to. Not only did these things not improve over the season, but they are getting worse! Not to mention our coach doesn't seem to worried about leaving a bitter taste in the seniors' mouth. The seniors became less and less of an integral part of the team as they were getting benched, getting hurt or what not. I didn't see a single senior(many changed positions so maybe I cant fault them) play better this year than they did last year, nor did they improve as players over this season. I'll give you this, the front 5 of Ontario looked good at times and is the best part of this team. Way better than last year. It still wasn't good enough to hold against good teams, even faltering to Carey for awhile. Besides that, the rest of this team has looked lack luster plus they arent getting any better over the course of this season. We are going to the moac, yes, however we are sick of seeing a team that just is getting by being mediocre. We may win more games, but playoffs are just as unlikely. Plus with the lack of talent coming up we may not see a playoff Ontario team for years to come. I will see what Hawkins can do but you can't fault us for being skeptical. Also btw this team doesnt have problems with playing its heart out especially this game with Sandusky. The skill players run hard, and our defence was giving good hits. Bad at tackling at times, but gave some good hits. I don't think they have a losing mentality, they are just bad. Talent wise, it gets worse. We lose 5(QB),2(good reciever), 2 d linemen (1 is hurt I think), 7/6( both good runners), and couple of o linemen. We have all seen their backups at sometime whether at a JV game or subbing, and they are not good. They may develop, but most of this year's players didn't develop alot... In the future, this team will have good linebackers but everything else is a question mark. Jim, it's obvious you are the relative of a Senior player. When you're rebuilding, if Seniors don't produce like Seniors should produce they don't play. A very simple concept, the coach MUST go with the younger players. The "bitter taste" in your mouth is irrelevant. The rest of your post is illogical, not knowledgeable and shortsighted. You either never played or didn't play on a very good team and know what it takes to win. Even worse is to blame this team's problems on a coach who has been at Ontario for less than a year, instead of blaming the previous two coaching staffs for being bad at developing players. As you say, the depth of talent coming could be so poor that not even Hawkins can turn this around quickly. Hell, you expected miracles from him this year. At least Hawkins has a history of success, all at places where their football was bad when he got there. I'm sure you're going to be even more PO's next year. Instead of making a post like the one above, just tell us who should be Ontario's next head coach, when you ask for Hawkin's head. At least Ontario's Administration actually went after a head coach of some note this time. Did you know the only reason the previous 2 head coaches got the job was because they were current teachers at Ontario? Whine about that, the reason Ontario's football is in the shape it's in.
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Post by galion on Oct 21, 2016 22:16:13 GMT -5
For what it's worth, calpreps projects that this season's Ontario team is 18 points better than last season's.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 21, 2016 22:19:01 GMT -5
I agree that math alone isn't enough. That's why I suggested also looking at other factors, like forced turnovers. Secondly, I don't think anyone is saying they are good. I think the argument is about how much, if at all, they have improved. How many Ontario games have those doing the judging SEEN over the past 2 years?? I suggest you do the math on how much more the Sandusky, Shelby and Norwalk offenses are scoring against ALL teams they've played this year VS last year. A MUCH larger sampling size.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 22:34:12 GMT -5
Lexington, Shelby, Norwalk and Sandusky last year or this year beat the 2016 Warriors.
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Post by heresjim on Oct 21, 2016 22:47:16 GMT -5
Willard, I agree that the soccer team has no effect on taking away talent from football. Let's talk about the football team now. Surely you must see this team didn't progress on all levels. This o line is almost as bad as the defence was bad last year. They can't move people, they arnt aggressive, and some are way undersized. The secondary is pitiful and was constantly being burned by pretty much everyone this year. Our recievers are super inconsistent (catching, blocking...) and there is no dominant threat besides maybe 2(again inconsistent) that we can throw to. Not only did these things not improve over the season, but they are getting worse! Not to mention our coach doesn't seem to worried about leaving a bitter taste in the seniors' mouth. The seniors became less and less of an integral part of the team as they were getting benched, getting hurt or what not. I didn't see a single senior(many changed positions so maybe I cant fault them) play better this year than they did last year, nor did they improve as players over this season. I'll give you this, the front 5 of Ontario looked good at times and is the best part of this team. Way better than last year. It still wasn't good enough to hold against good teams, even faltering to Carey for awhile. Besides that, the rest of this team has looked lack luster plus they arent getting any better over the course of this season. We are going to the moac, yes, however we are sick of seeing a team that just is getting by being mediocre. We may win more games, but playoffs are just as unlikely. Plus with the lack of talent coming up we may not see a playoff Ontario team for years to come. I will see what Hawkins can do but you can't fault us for being skeptical. Also btw this team doesnt have problems with playing its heart out especially this game with Sandusky. The skill players run hard, and our defence was giving good hits. Bad at tackling at times, but gave some good hits. I don't think they have a losing mentality, they are just bad. Talent wise, it gets worse. We lose 5(QB),2(good reciever), 2 d linemen (1 is hurt I think), 7/6( both good runners), and couple of o linemen. We have all seen their backups at sometime whether at a JV game or subbing, and they are not good. They may develop, but most of this year's players didn't develop alot... In the future, this team will have good linebackers but everything else is a question mark. Jim, it's obvious you are the relative of a Senior player.  When you're rebuilding, if Seniors don't produce like Seniors should produce they don't play. A very simple concept, the coach MUST go with the younger players. The "bitter taste" in your mouth is irrelevant. The rest of your post is illogical, not knowledgeable and shortsighted. You either never played or didn't play on a very good team and know what it takes to win. Even worse is to blame this team's problems on a coach who has been at Ontario for less than a year, instead of blaming the previous two coaching staffs for being bad at developing players. As you say, the depth of talent coming could be so poor that not even Hawkins can turn this around quickly. Hell, you expected miracles from him this year.   At least Hawkins has a history of success, all at places where their football was bad when he got there. First off, I'm not 100% blaming this on the coaching staff. He and the staff did a good job at adjusting to games where Ontario was getting beat if it was possible to fix. I never thought the play calling was ever that bad, better then last year's for sure. Hawkins got there in may and had to introduce the kids to a new system. People changed positions, new culture was established etc... All I expected from this team was to be competitive at least against Norwalk and not completely roll over to good teams. I wanted to see the mistakes being made get fixed week to week. Instead many of the mistakes continued to be made. Maybe the kids attitudes are so bad they arnt coachable, idk. If I saw a team that progressed as well as lex did from there 0-10 season I would be happy. The progress just was too little in my eyes but maybe the team was just that far in disrepair. I didn't think it was that far beyond redmption but maybe I was wrong. Hawkins has done this before in one season but I suppose Ontario had deeper lying issues compared to the other teams he had. I understand that you have to move on from the seniors when they can't play but their treatment surely doesn't garner morale for those underclassmen watching them struggle. I guess they will serve as the lesson for underclassmen of what not to be. I sympathize with them yes, because I didn't have success on my team when I played, but surely they could be invested in so they can least acknowledge they didnt waste their 4 years or feel the sting of being unlucky enough to be part of a program that didn't develop them in the past.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 21, 2016 22:55:23 GMT -5
You said they had more talent returning. Since you couldn't have meant that they gained talent, you must mean that they lost more than other teams. I know they lost their qb, a receiver and an OL....5 two way staters is a lot if that's accurate, but I can't think of that many. My original point is simple. Despite winning 2 more games than last year (with two of the wins coming against arguable lesser competition) they have actually showed very little (if any) improvement. This is silliness. Other than it's MUCH more difficult to go after the basketball program that has won an NOL Title every year they have been in the league. I knew Ontario wasn't going to be better this year compared to the rest of the league. I knew Sandusky had more speed than Ontario, more depth at WR, quicker and more physical lines, a better QB and running back. I knew Shelby had THE 2 best back to back classes they've had come along in MANY years. Ontario has't had 1 class like that let alone 2 in a LONG time. I knew they had a QB who has offers from all 5 Power Conferences as a Junior. BTW the position Urban calls the single most important position in ALL sports. I knew they had a much bigger, more physical O-line returning. Bellevue is Bellevue they reload almost every year. There was NO reason to believe Ontario would be closer to those 3 schools this year. I wasn't sure about Norwalk, I thought maybe that could be Ontario's 5 win this year. I had no idea the younger Harraway played football. IMO if Harraway was their QB from the beginning of the year, theyr could have a better record than what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 22:59:38 GMT -5
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 21, 2016 23:13:12 GMT -5
EXCEPT, Ontario schools "recruit" themselves. Build it and they will come. Parents line up overnight every year prior to the first day for accepting new open enrollment students. 40 were turned away last year, they didn't get there early enough
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 23:18:33 GMT -5
And up to now that has helped the football program in what way?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 23:21:24 GMT -5
You seem to be convinced it is was they are running to. Some of us see it is what they are running from, without having to do the work of moving. Or paying to live there.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 21, 2016 23:46:50 GMT -5
They could be "running" to every other school district in Richland county and many from surrounding counties, except for Lexington. No one is "running" to something that is worse, equal or somewhat better. OR "running" away from something better. They are "running" to something considerably better than what they have. They are "running" for THE REASON the State created Ohio's Open Enrollment Program. Be careful with your "running", some would say you are discriminating at best or racist at worst. "Do the work of moving", how obtuse. Some also move, but many can't sell their homes for enough to cover their mortgage, would you suggest they move if that's the case? If they could move more would, lower taxes, better evaluations. Some who have their kids in private schools open enroll and save the cost of tuition and get just as good of an education. You don't think it's wise to save money? Some have lost income and no longer can afford the tuition. It's not as simple as simple is.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 21, 2016 23:57:21 GMT -5
And up to now that has helped the football program in what way? A stupid hate filled query. The reason the vast majority Open Enroll is due to facilities, staff and academics. THE REASON the State created Ohio's Open Enrollment Program.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 6:51:13 GMT -5
I have no hate for any district. but that seems to define your thoughts when other disagree with you.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 6:54:12 GMT -5
Staff and academics can be argued in the same category. Now list the issues they may be running from if you can?
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 22, 2016 15:36:39 GMT -5
I will not respond when you use the discrimatory term "running".
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 22, 2016 15:38:57 GMT -5
I have no hate for any district. but that seems to define your thoughts when other disagree with you. Where did I say you hated a district? Your disdain for Ohio's Open Enrollment Policy and the reason for its creation, is what makes you look bad.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 23:21:55 GMT -5
Actually I'm looking pretty good.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 23:24:25 GMT -5
And up to now that has helped the football program in what way? A stupid hate filled query. The reason the vast majority Open Enroll is due to facilities, staff and academics. THE REASON the State created sOhio's Open Enrollment Program.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 23:24:41 GMT -5
A stupid hate filled query.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 23:25:10 GMT -5
Nothing hate filled at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 23:25:34 GMT -5
Nothing stupid at all.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 23, 2016 16:24:46 GMT -5
What's intelligent about the question?? You obviously have a disdain for Ohio's Open Enrollment program and the reason it was created.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 23, 2016 16:31:07 GMT -5
Actually I'm looking pretty good. You're discrimination doesn't look good.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2016 20:16:39 GMT -5
What's intelligent about the question?? You obviously have a disdain for Ohio's Open Enrollment program and the reason it was created.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2016 20:17:23 GMT -5
Who said it was.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2016 20:18:13 GMT -5
Actually I'm looking pretty good. You're discrimination doesn't look good.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2016 20:18:45 GMT -5
I don't .
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