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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 27, 2016 21:20:04 GMT -5
You're not paying attention. Here's the scenario being proffered. You live in Mansfield and your child attends St.Petes or one of the Christian private schools. You take your child out of that private school at the end of a school year and you still live in Mansfield. After that has happened, how do you get your child into ANY school district other than Mansfield's without moving, assuming it has open enrollment?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2016 21:26:06 GMT -5
Don't forget, Open Enrollment students bring tax money with them. Many parents would prefer to live where their Open Enrollment children go to school. Their property taxes would be lower, their evaluations would be higher, but they can't get out from under their mortgage to move. Open Enrollment allows ALL kids the same educational opportunity. Some adult's lives haven't been as successful as ours. Some kids aren't as fortunate as ours. The kids aren't "sponging", show some compassion. Its a ponzie scheme. It brings one half the cost of educating a student. It doesn't matter that they don't use busing or anything else. They only bring in half of the value of the student. The district tax payers make up the rest. You can not run a business like this forever it will catch up someday. Mrsteel, how many kids are under your open enrollment program?
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 27, 2016 21:27:14 GMT -5
"Leave" is reasonable, shows humility and sympathy in this regard. "Running" shows contempt, dislike and ridicules. I can't admit wanting to "leave" DOLTISH!! I suggested "leave" as much nicer alternative to YOUR "running". Be a man, admit that "running" was a very poor choice by you to describe the process of Open Enrollment. I find it repulsive. Running or leaving both show the desire to not be where ever they are. You spin it how you want but both make the same point. Relax your need for an argument and accept that most do not care if you feel their choice of words are poor. As as said by another, "lighten up Francis!". Saying someone is "running" from a school district or to another district is insulting. Saying someone is "leaving" a school district for another school district shows understanding. As one says to another, be cool Willie.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 27, 2016 21:32:36 GMT -5
AGAIN, what I am 100% sure of is that parents from EVERY school district in Richland County, including the private schools and some schools from surrounding Counties, have chosen to Open Enroll their child/children into the Ontario school district, when in many cases they live closer to other districts. What I am 100% sure of is that this year 40 families were turned away, there was no room for them. Do you know of another school district in this area(including adjacent counties) where that is the case?? Ontario isn't exactly centrally located in Richland Country. It is on the far western side of the country. All of the instances you put forward would also come into play regardless of where an alternative district is located. If you want something bad enough you will make sacrifices, I know many that do. But what you do not know, are those parents travel habits, family members residence, babysitters residence or their place of work. All conveniences that could factor in to their choice. Most school who have open enrollment, have open enrollment students. It DOES NOT matter what YOU do not know. If you want something specific, even if it takes a little more time or costs a little more. You will do what it takes to get it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2016 21:43:07 GMT -5
Running or leaving both show the desire to not be where ever they are. You spin it how you want but both make the same point. Relax your need for an argument and accept that most do not care if you feel their choice of words are poor. As as said by another, "lighten up Francis!". Saying someone is "running" from a school district or to another district is insulting. Saying someone is "leaving" a school district for another school district shows understanding. As one says to another, be cool Willie. There was no insult, it was a word to describe an action of movement. Nobody is actually performing a sprinting motion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2016 21:46:14 GMT -5
But what you do not know, are those parents travel habits, family members residence, babysitters residence or their place of work. All conveniences that could factor in to their choice. Most school who have open enrollment, have open enrollment students. It DOES NOT matter what YOU do not know. If you want something specific, even if it takes a little more time or costs a little more. You will do what it takes to get it. It all factors in to the choice. As reported, approximately 60% of the Ontario open enrollment students come from the Mansfield district. Which is easier to get to than Clear Fork, Shelby, Plymouth or Lucas. And much cheaper than St Petes, Mansfield Christian or Temple.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2016 21:50:13 GMT -5
Don't forget, Open Enrollment students bring tax money with them. Many parents would prefer to live where their Open Enrollment children go to school. Their property taxes would be lower, their evaluations would be higher, but they can't get out from under their mortgage to move. Open Enrollment allows ALL kids the same educational opportunity. Some adult's lives haven't been as successful as ours. Some kids aren't as fortunate as ours. The kids aren't "sponging", show some compassion. Its a ponzie scheme. It brings one half the cost of educating a student. It doesn't matter that they don't use busing or anything else. They only bring in half of the value of the student. The district tax payers make up the rest. You can not run a business like this forever it will catch up someday. Valid statement. How can a school take on an additional 340+ students and not have additional teachers. It is impossible.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 27, 2016 22:33:49 GMT -5
It DOES NOT matter what YOU do not know. If you want something specific, even if it takes a little more time or costs a little more. You will do what it takes to get it. It all factors in to the choice. As reported, approximately 60% of the Ontario open enrollment students come from the Mansfield district. Which is easier to get to than Clear Fork, Shelby, Plymouth or Lucas. And much cheaper than St Petes, Mansfield Christian or Temple. Don't be so specious. It depends on where you live in Mansfield. Madison is closer to eastern Mansfield. Clear Fork is closer to Southern Mansfield. Shelby is just as close to North Eastern Mansfield. ALL schools with Open Enrollment would be cheaper than all private schools. BESIDES, if one lived on the west side of Mansfield and REALLY wanted to go to Madison, a few extra miles would not stop them.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 27, 2016 22:37:34 GMT -5
Saying someone is "running" from a school district or to another district is insulting. Saying someone is "leaving" a school district for another school district shows understanding. As one says to another, be cool Willie. There was no insult, it was a word to describe an action of movement. Nobody is actually performing a sprinting motion. Ask those who Open Enroll. If they would rather be said to have left something or have run away from something. You have never in your entire lifetime ever admitted to being wrong about anything, you are not a big enough person. A first time would be good for your soul.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 27, 2016 22:47:36 GMT -5
Its a ponzie scheme. It brings one half the cost of educating a student. It doesn't matter that they don't use busing or anything else. They only bring in half of the value of the student. The district tax payers make up the rest. You can not run a business like this forever it will catch up someday. Valid statement. How can a school take on an additional 340+ students and not have additional teachers. It is impossible. Who said 340+? Not impossible, class sizes used to be way below state maximum standards, now are close to or at the top of state standards. Mr Steel didn't answer, maybe scootyknowitall can. How did the Ontario school district in 4 years, go from over 1 million in dept to being solvent through 2021 without passing an additional operating levy??
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Post by greenman on Oct 27, 2016 23:22:27 GMT -5
There was no insult, it was a word to describe an action of movement. Nobody is actually performing a sprinting motion. Ask those who Open Enroll. You have never in your entire lifetime ever admitted to being wrong about anything, you are not a big enough person. A first time would be good for your soul. Paging Dr. Pot, you have a call on line 1 from Dr. Kettle. Please pick up the nearest white courtesy phone. I'm one of those folks who's in the schools everyday, and I've met plenty of "open-enrolled" kids. Eight times out of ten, it has nothing to do with actual "opportunities" in the classroom, but Mommy and Daddy KnowNothing not getting their ridiculous, unreasonable way in one one district when they are up against the actual expertise of professionals trained in pedagogy and child psychology. They skip town and take their bad personalities and complete lack of understanding and infest another district. If that district is really any good, they run into the same situation again. When it comes to the "Calling open-enrollment folks 'runners' is discriminatory," WF, it appears you don't even believe your own BS. No way would such a harmless word like "runner" make you fly so far off the handle so fast otherwise. You and Scooter's endless wars about nothing on these threads usually just make me sick, with both of you sharing equal parts to the whole of my nausea, but this is something on which I feel I needed to speak out. I don't have anything special against either one of you necessarily - I was about to write this entire thread off once NOSF's original Oscar and Felix started another unnecessary spat. Then I saw one teensy word take you from your usual "have-to-get-the-last-word-in-everywhere" self to "foaming-at-the-mouth" defensive. As someone who's in the schools day after day, having seen what "open enrollment" has done to what were once some of the better schools, I admit that I'd already somewhat picked a side, though I didn't intend to have a dog in one of your little fights. Then, you saw the word "running" and flew the hell off the handle, and I admit, I kind of enjoyed watching it. There's a special lil' Johnny in your life that you feel didn't get enough playing time, or maybe the classroom teachers weren't kowtowing to the concept of lil' Johnny acting like an arsehole as he is wont to do- you didn't get your way BOO HOO - so like so many of the breeders (I'll burn in Hell's deepest pit before I call them "parents," by God) of this generation's teenagers, you run from your problems. That's why such an unbelievable innocuous word gives you fits - it must describe you perfectly! Many of the open-enrollment students I've met in multiple districts are not one-and-done transfers - most I know could rack up Frequent Flyer miles on the school district ship-jumping. Some go to four or five surrounding districts before they "get it right." Others jump back and forth between two or three, ofttimes within the same school year. The ridiculous thing is that most of these kids are great, academically and behavior-wise, and, like a hardy plant, would likely thrive anywhere if the parent(s)/guardian(s) would let them lay down some roots. Can't hold a marriage together? Let's bounce a kid across a county, or even the state? Mean ol' teacher won't give lil' Suzy a 30-day extension on a five-question worksheet? Outrage, and on to the district next door! Coach won't put our Billy in at QB and WR at the same time so he'll get the looks he deserves from Overpriced State U.? Into the arms of our archrivals, that'll show 'em! Meanwhile, as it's already been put forward here, the cost of an open-enrolled students education far exceeds what tax monies they bring with them, into a community and school culture that may be profoundly different from what they are accustomed to. Schools losing students to popular districts with open-enrollment tend not to be so gracious about the loss, either. In '09, one local school in a suburban community I know received hundreds upon hundreds of applications from one neighboring, more "urban" district in particular, and it went on like that for several years. The school on the losing end became VERY vocally bitter about the both the loss of their students as well as the resources that the other district had in the first place to make it so very attractive even before it opened its enrollment. The suburban school is now a shadow of its former self, in terms of both academics and discipline - it's also overcrowded. During those early years, furthermore, it became apparent to staff at that suburban school that many students enrolling from the more "urban" district that could qualify for IEPs had not even been ID'd as possible candidates for such treatments by their home school. If that was accidental, it's serious negligence - if deliberate, it's even worse. I've digressed enough, WF. You're the one foaming at the mouth and swinging the ax over "running, for Chrissakes. Normally I'd ignore this nonsense, but you've really gone beyond the Pale in searching for something to be offended by or fight about. If such an innocuous, quotidian word is such a loud dog whistle for you, maybe you're the one that needs to do the soul-searching, or at least spend an hour a week laying on a shrink's couch. TL;DR: If "running" as it's used in this context is such a tender word for you, then you're guilty as sin of running from something when you should've stayed and compromised or stayed and fought. And you know it.
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Post by greenman on Oct 27, 2016 23:30:10 GMT -5
Valid statement. How can a school take on an additional 340+ students and not have additional teachers. It is impossible. Who said 340+? Not impossible, class sizes used to be way below state maximum standards, now are close to or at the top of state standards. Mr Steel didn't answer, maybe scootyknowitall can. How did the Ontario school district in 4 years, go from over 1 million in dept to being solvent through 2021 without passing an additional operating levy?? In the first year of open enrollment at Perkins, around that many applications were received from Sandusky families alone. Open-enrollment is ridiculous across the board. It robs the better schools of resources, takes schools that are already too large to give every student the attention they deserve and makes them far larger, destroys the identity of small communities by wiping out their schools entirely, and teaches folks not to make sacrifices to change a place you love for the better - just ride the rails 'til you reach grass that's still green.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 28, 2016 2:19:56 GMT -5
Tell me, why does Perkins have Open Enrollment?
Ontario voters were not going to pass an operating levy, they even threatened to turn down a renewal levy. Why? Ontario was growing, schools were crowded, the middle school was 100 years old and falling down. The voters stepped up and passed a levy to build a new middle school and make an addition to the high school. Shortly after all construction was completed and moved into, Ohio won their lawsuit against the tobacco companies. Systems all around Ontario were getting new schools built for 33 cents on the dollar, the state giving them the 66%. Now Ontario needed to refurbish their oldest elementary school and double it's size, after selling their newer elementary school on the East side of town, which really POd voters. So they applied for state money, like most all schools in a 6 county area were doing and they all got their money. The State said nope to Ontario, you don't qualify, your district is too wealthy. So the district tried 3 times to get money from the voters and finally passed a levy to do the elementary construction. Now they needed money to operate the new schools.
That was the last straw. The district sold a school building they shouldn't have. The voters paid for a new middle school and an addition to the high school. Then all schools in the area were getting free money from the State to build new schools, but wouldn't give Ontario a penny. So the voters passed another levy for the elementary schools. After 3 operating levies were turned down and voters were threatening to defeat a renewal levy, the district was over 1 million in debt and the superintendent left. The new Super had been the Super at Massillon city schools and had dug them out of a financial hole. The first thing she did was to say we WILL have Open Enrollment. 4 years later, the district is out of debt and is solvent until 2021, without the need of a new operating levy. AND Ontario hs the lowest property taxes in the area.
If the people of Ontario don't like Open Enrollment, all they have to do is vote to increase their property taxes by an average of $1000/year. How about you? Do you ALWAYS vote for school levies? I do, not one thing on the ballot is more important to me.
Granted, a school district has very little say on who they can turn down when it comes to Open Enrollment. However they can set a limit on the quantity they take. Ontario does an extensive study every year and doesn't take one more student than they can handle. There are some bad situations, but the vast majority of Open Enrollment students at Ontario are good kids. AND Ontario schools STILL get the highest academic grades from the State in a 6 county area. THAT being the case, at Ontario schools nothing is ridiculous, robbed, too large or wiped out. ALSO, at Ontario students can take college courses from their high school teachers that will give them up to 60 hours of college credits by the time they graduate, FOR FREE. They don't even pay for the text books like in college.
I guess I'm just a softy, I have empathy for children that aren't getting a good education, through no fault of their own. You can be upset with the state, with the system, with parents, but not the kids.
I pity Perkins' situation.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2016 3:44:33 GMT -5
It all factors in to the choice. As reported, approximately 60% of the Ontario open enrollment students come from the Mansfield district. Which is easier to get to than Clear Fork, Shelby, Plymouth or Lucas. And much cheaper than St Petes, Mansfield Christian or Temple. Don't be so specious. It depends on where you live in Mansfield. Madison is closer to eastern Mansfield. Clear Fork is closer to Southern Mansfield. Shelby is just as close to North Eastern Mansfield. ALL schools with Open Enrollment would be cheaper than all private schools. BESIDES, if one lived on the west side of Mansfield and REALLY wanted to go to Madison, a few extra miles would not stop them. But if grandma live on Mary Lou Ln the e trap miles could matter.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2016 3:47:21 GMT -5
There was no insult, it was a word to describe an action of movement. Nobody is actually performing a sprinting motion. Ask those who Open Enroll. If they would rather be said to have left something or have run away from something. You have never in your entire lifetime ever admitted to being wrong about anything, you are not a big enough person. A first time would be good for your soul. Done, they did not care. They understand the intent of the phrasing. And I've been wrong plenty. You haven't been paying attention. And you have not known me for my entire life.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2016 3:54:41 GMT -5
Valid statement. How can a school take on an additional 340+ students and not have additional teachers. It is impossible. Who said 340+? Not impossible, class sizes used to be way below state maximum standards, now are close to or at the top of state standards. Mr Steel didn't answer, maybe scootyknowitall can. How did the Ontario school district in 4 years, go from over 1 million in dept to being solvent through 2021 without passing an additional operating levy?? Carmichael. 346 to be exact. Maximum class sizes can also be a result of employee cuts in some district to save money. In this case they added kids. Which means they kept or added teacher to handle they additional kids enrolled. Either way you see it the total amount of expenses for staff is higher.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2016 4:04:21 GMT -5
And there you have it from someone directly connected to open enrollment and no one was offended. I could leave it there but I'm sure there will be more worthless spinning made.
Interesting reading greenman. Thanks for the thoughts.
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Post by mrsteel on Oct 28, 2016 12:52:52 GMT -5
We were promised "only" 200 at the start. They have had to add every year more to cover loss. Solvent? Someone needs to re-read the news letter. Projection of $ million short and adding more open enrollment unless they get replacement levy. Class sizes have grown to 30 in some elementary classes. Less one on one with your kid now,even though you live in the district. Quit drinking the admin koolaid thinking its a swell thing. Other districts use it as a threat to implement if levies fail.
They had about 50% wanting to pass a levy, but admin doesn't want to deal with loss possibility to put it back on. They cater to the people that do not want to support the schools today. Just like slashing the pay to play to keep them happy.
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Post by greenman on Oct 28, 2016 16:01:20 GMT -5
Tell me, why does Perkins have Open Enrollment? Ontario voters were not going to pass an operating levy, they even threatened to turn down a renewal levy. Why? Ontario was growing, schools were crowded, the middle school was 100 years old and falling down. The voters stepped up and passed a levy to build a new middle school and make an addition to the high school. Shortly after all construction was completed and moved into, Ohio won their lawsuit against the tobacco companies. Systems all around Ontario were getting new schools built for 33 cents on the dollar, the state giving them the 66%. Now Ontario needed to refurbish their oldest elementary school and double it's size, after selling their newer elementary school on the East side of town, which really POd voters. So they applied for state money, like most all schools in a 6 county area were doing and they all got their money. The State said nope to Ontario, you don't qualify, your district is too wealthy. So the district tried 3 times to get money from the voters and finally passed a levy to do the elementary construction. Now they needed money to operate the new schools. That was the last straw. The district sold a school building they shouldn't have. The voters paid for a new middle school and an addition to the high school. Then all schools in the area were getting free money from the State to build new schools, but wouldn't give Ontario a penny. So the voters passed another levy for the elementary schools. After 3 operating levies were turned down and voters were threatening to defeat a renewal levy, the district was over 1 million in debt and the superintendent left. The new Super had been the Super at Massillon city schools and had dug them out of a financial hole. The first thing she did was to say we WILL have Open Enrollment. 4 years later, the district is out of debt and is solvent until 2021, without the need of a new operating levy. AND Ontario hs the lowest property taxes in the area. If the people of Ontario don't like Open Enrollment, all they have to do is vote to increase their property taxes by an average of $1000/year. How about you? Do you ALWAYS vote for school levies? I do, not one thing on the ballot is more important to me. Granted, a school district has very little say on who they can turn down when it comes to Open Enrollment. However they can set a limit on the quantity they take. Ontario does an extensive study every year and doesn't take one more student than they can handle. There are some bad situations, but the vast majority of Open Enrollment students at Ontario are good kids. AND Ontario schools STILL get the highest academic grades from the State in a 6 county area. THAT being the case, at Ontario schools nothing is ridiculous, robbed, too large or wiped out. ALSO, at Ontario students can take college courses from their high school teachers that will give them up to 60 hours of college credits by the time they graduate, FOR FREE. They don't even pay for the text books like in college. I guess I'm just a softy, I have empathy for children that aren't getting a good education, through no fault of their own. You can be upset with the state, with the system, with parents, but not the kids. I pity Perkins' situation. Before Dr. Sanders returned home to take the reins at Sandusky in 2012, the district was still stuck in the malaise of high-poverty, low performance, and low self-esteem that had crippled it during the 90s. Small gains had been made in the 00's - especially with Sandusky's adoption of open-enrollment - but overall, things still looked rather bleak. Gunner, Supt. of Perkins at the time, smelled blood in the water and saw dollar signs floating in front of his eyes. We were promised that "Perkins discipline" would remain in place, but the writing was on the wall from very early on when the floodgates were finally opened. When district report cards would come out (under the old system), we used to consistently rank near Edison (Excellent, Excellent w/ Distinction). Those days are gone. To further his quest for more $$$, Gunner also partially dismantled one of the only - and one of the better - middle school gifted programs in the area (of which I was a proud part back in the day). Only recently under the new Super was this revived - at this point, still just a shadow of what it once was. This was done in a deal with the Devil where Perkins took even more of the severely-handicapped students than we already did (already, we were the only school in the county that could accommodate the most needful students), while Townsend(sp?) at Margaretta took alt. education students and Sandusky set up their Regional Ctr. for Advanced Academic Studies (which in any other district, would just be called the gifted prgm., but needs to be a special, separate building with SCS). School districts get more $$$ per student w/disabilities than per gifted student, don'tcherknow? Now the whole place is a mess, and those of us who were there all through the nineties can only hang our heads. Not to bash Sandusky for creating that Reg. Ctr., though. The pride and community spirit that Dr. Sanders and the whole Blue Streak family have worked so hard to bring back in such a short time is astounding. No matter what lingering bad you may see in the schools or the city, it's an amazing accomplishment to have so many in this town pulling together for the schools again, and the schools pulling for the community in return. I raise a glass to 'em.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 28, 2016 18:15:26 GMT -5
And Perkins and Sandusky will finally be in the same league, good for everyone
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2016 21:49:46 GMT -5
Good posts from greenman and mrsteel from being unbiased and well informed.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 28, 2016 22:31:41 GMT -5
You're not including yourself from[sic]that group of excellence??
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2016 6:49:08 GMT -5
I, unlike you, do not need to put myself above others.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 29, 2016 12:22:00 GMT -5
Really?? You obviously put yourself above me and others every chance you get, as is witnessed here. Your disdain is conspicuous. I, unlike you, do not need to make innocuous statements with ulterior motives.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2016 14:14:38 GMT -5
I've never thought of myself as better than anyone else. We are all our own individuals and I like that.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 29, 2016 22:13:01 GMT -5
Then how do you excuse your put downs? A sure sign you think you're better. All anyone has to do is read this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2016 16:56:36 GMT -5
If you do not like something that is said, you see it as a put down. This is so far off the truth. I have never made a posts to heighten myself over another. And I have never insulted anyone's intelligence by telling them they do not understand the English language or do not know how to use words in their proper context or meaning. That is always someone else.
I'll now wait for another insult or correction explaining how someone on hear is wrong.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 30, 2016 21:21:26 GMT -5
EXAMPLES OF PUTTING YOURSELF ABOVE OTHERS
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 30, 2016 21:23:45 GMT -5
I, unlike you, do not need to put myself above others. Thus, you are saying I put myself above others. A put down, saying you are better than me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2016 21:26:50 GMT -5
Spin
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