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Post by Vogel on Oct 23, 2021 8:12:09 GMT -5
What a dumb post. Yeah let’s compare Willard’s head coach to the best CFB coaches to ever coach the game. And yes I saw your failed attempt to also compare historically great high school coaches. Guess what? Not every hire is gonna be the best coach in the history of the game. And that doesn’t mean they need fired. You couldn’t do better. Stop talking. Look another buttercup that thinks crappy coaches should keep their jobs. This is why America is a dumpster fire right now. Keep lowering those expectations. Does Nick Saban lower expectations? Does Urban Meyer lower espectations? 0-10 and 1-9 is now acceptable on a yearly basis? Good call ebgames. Coaches like IQ, Height, athletic ability fit a bell curve. Most coaches are average. Most coaches don't have what it takes to turn a bad program around. Firing most coaches doesn't hurt a program positively or negatively. If a coach has poor talent, then the coach failed at recruiting the kids walking the halls in the school.Great Coaches10-0 with great players & most likely a State Title 10-0 / 9-1 with good players with a shot at a State Title 8-2 / 7-3 with average players 6-4 / 5-5 with below average players 3-7 / 2-8 with poor players Good Coaches10-0 with great players & a shot at a State Title 10-0 / 9-1 with good players 8-2 / 7-3 / 6-4 with average players 5-5 / 4-6 with below average players 3-7 / 2-8 with poor players Average Coaches10-0 / 9-1 with great players - very slim shot at winning a State Title 8-2 / 7-3 with good players 6-4 / 5-5 / 4-6 with average players 3-7 / 2-8 with below average players 1-9 / 0-10 with poor players Below Average Coaches8-2 / 7-3 with great players 6-4 / 5-5 with good players 4-6 / 3-7 with average players 2-8 / 1-9 with below average players 0-10 with poor players Poor Coaches6-4 / 5-5 with great players 4-6 / 3-7 with good players 2-8 / 1-9 with average players 0-10 with below average players 0-10 with poor players Bob Haas coached 22 years at Willard and the worst season he had was 13-8. He made average players into good players and below average players into average players. Ed Nasonti has done the same at Bellevue Steve Gilbert did the same at Tiffin Columbian But let me guess you think Norwalk had no football talent for 33 straight years. They went 33 consecutive seasons without a winning record in football. No football talent in Norwalk for 33 straight years OR poor coaching hires? Stop blaming the kids. Coaches are responsible for motivation. The W's and L's reside on the Coach. Shelby kids, Bellevue kids, Norwalk kids, Willard kids, they are all the same. It's up to the COACH to pull out the best in them. Norwalk didn't go 33 straight year with a lack of football talent, if they hired Ed Nasonti in that time frame they would have won NOL Titles.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 23, 2021 8:19:37 GMT -5
Gilbert couldn't do what he did at TC when he was at Mansfield Senior. Did he become a very good coach over night, or were the issues at Senior more than he could overcome. When the right coach got the job at Senior, with essentially the same players, Senior had success. Sometimes, a big part of a why coach has success at a high school is how he fits the culture.
In high school, especially at the small or smaller schools, when a new head coach is hired there are no "good" candidates that apply. OR, it can be like rolling the dice and the wrong number comes up. When Haas was hired did all the people on the search or BOD know he would have the success he did? I seriously doubt it. Willard got very lucky, it happens. I've seen it happen often at other schools. Rarely if ever when the hire is done, and success happens, did anyone know it would be as successful as it turned out. Again, at the high school small school level.
Urban Meyer/Ohio State, it was pretty much a certainty.....until he tried his hand in the NFL, I don't feel as good about that fit. I hope I'm wrong.
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Post by Vogel on Oct 23, 2021 8:26:51 GMT -5
Unlike some of you Willard fans that accept 0-10 and 1-9, I don't. I always give a coach 2 years. Historical data shows a program can be turned around in year 1 or 2. It doesn't take 5 years to turn a 1-9 team into a 5-5 team. 5-5 is average. 5-5 is not good. It doesn't take 5 years to become average. Talent is in the school, get the talent out. Hopefully Speller can do what Hawkins did at Galion, but another 1-9, NO. Galion |
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| Willard |
| | 2002 | 1-9 |
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| 2014 | 0-10 | | 2003 | 0-10 |
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| 2015 | 1-9 | | 2004 | 0-10 |
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| 2016 | 1-9 | | 2005 | 1-9 |
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| 2019 | 1-9 | | 2006 | 1-9 |
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| 2020 | 0-11 | | 2007 | 1-9 | Hawkins 1st year |
| 2021 | 1-9 | Speller's 1st year | 2008 | 5-5 | Hawkins 2nd year |
| 2022 | ?? | | 2009 | 10-1 | Hawkins 3rd year |
| 2023 |
| Cupcake River Division again |
Yes I skipped 2017 & 2018 for Willard, when we played in the River Division and padded win totals vs Danbury, Fremont St Joe, SMCC and other cupcakes. Those teams might have gotten 2 wins vs a normal Willard schedule.
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Post by falcon87 on Oct 23, 2021 8:42:34 GMT -5
I always thought cupcake games were those you win. Apparently a cupcake division is one in which you go .500 at Willard. Insulting smaller schools does not disguise the fact Willard can’t compete against D-V teams so feel fortunate the D-VI and D-VII schools will let you appear competitive for another season
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Post by dude on Oct 23, 2021 9:23:25 GMT -5
Unlike some of you Willard fans that accept 0-10 and 1-9, I don't. I always give a coach 2 years. Historical data shows a program can be turned around in year 1 or 2. It doesn't take 5 years to turn a 1-9 team into a 5-5 team. 5-5 is average. 5-5 is not good. It doesn't take 5 years to become average. Talent is in the school, get the talent out. Hopefully Speller can do what Hawkins did at Galion, but another 1-9, NO. Galion |
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| Willard |
| | 2002 | 1-9 |
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| 2014 | 0-10 | | 2003 | 0-10 |
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| 2015 | 1-9 | | 2004 | 0-10 |
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| 2016 | 1-9 | | 2005 | 1-9 |
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| 2019 | 1-9 | | 2006 | 1-9 |
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| 2020 | 0-11 | | 2007 | 1-9 | Hawkins 1st year |
| 2021 | 1-9 | Speller's 1st year | 2008 | 5-5 | Hawkins 2nd year |
| 2022 | ?? | | 2009 | 10-1 | Hawkins 3rd year |
| 2023 |
| Cupcake River Division again |
Yes I skipped 2017 & 2018 for Willard, when we played in the River Division and padded win totals vs Danbury, Fremont St Joe, SMCC and other cupcakes. Those teams might have gotten 2 wins vs a normal Willard schedule. Can you provide the Willard season, record and coach for every year since 2007?
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Post by Vogel on Oct 23, 2021 9:50:39 GMT -5
I always thought cupcake games were those you win. Apparently a cupcake division is one in which you go .500 at Willard. Insulting smaller schools does not disguise the fact Willard can’t compete against D-V teams so feel fortunate the D-VI and D-VII schools will let you appear competitive for another season Do you think you just posted a got me? What do you think I've been writing about this whole time? About how amazing Willard's been over the last decade? Is that what you read in this thread? Are the 7th grade sisters of the poor a cupcake? Are the 5th grade blind and deaf a cupcake? Are the 6th grade leukemia kids a cupcake? Are the 8th grade hopscotch girls a cupcake? Willard pads win totals vs those teams. 2-2 is padding, it would be 0-4 vs real teams. So yes, Willard padded win totals vs Danbury, SMCC, St Joe.
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Post by Vogel on Oct 23, 2021 9:57:25 GMT -5
Gilbert couldn't do what he did at TC when he was at Mansfield Senior. Did he become a very good coach over night, or were the issues at Senior more than he could overcome. When the right coach got the job at Senior, with essentially the same players, Senior had success. I'm sorry Gilbert didn't go 9-1 or 8-2 every year at Mansfield Senior for you. You are pretending Gilbert was going 0-10 every year at Senior. Gilbert (16-4) at Ashland Crestview Gilbert (36-24) at Mansfield Senior and (8-2) in his last year at Sr. Here's a member of Gilbert's coaching tree, John Livengood From the Sandusky Register March 15, 1991 Some of you act as though coaches are static coaches. Coaches are just like players, they can improve, go in slumps, etc. If a coach gives 100% in years 1-5 then starts giving 70% effort in years 6-10, you'll see a dropoff. Then they might get fired, that might rejuvenate their juices to coach and start giving 100% again at the next school.
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Post by Vogel on Oct 23, 2021 9:59:16 GMT -5
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Post by maplecityjake on Oct 23, 2021 10:00:27 GMT -5
Wasn't 2009 Galion being recipients of some really good transfers from Columbus area?
I can just about assure Nasonti wouldn't have worked in Norwalk.
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Post by dude on Oct 23, 2021 11:02:18 GMT -5
Wasn't 2009 Galion being recipients of some really good transfers from Columbus area? I can just about assure Nasonti wouldn't have worked in Norwalk. I'm not saying that someone was not a good coach on the sideline and practices but when you actively break multiple OHSAA rules in your off season, it can be hard to use that person's record in a argument about what good coaching can provide.
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Post by whsbcs88 on Oct 23, 2021 12:02:16 GMT -5
As an alumni of Willard I feel that yes it does partially come down to coaches but as being a parent of a senior that is a spectacular athlete when it comes to football, I can say this I feel that thunderbolt program and middle school football is what either makes or breaks a football program. You have kids that are athletic but for some reason you have coaches saying well his dad or his mom isn’t very tall so the kid won’t be tall so let’s go with the kid that we know their parents was athletes. Or this kid is huge let’s give him the ball 90% of the time because I as a coach feel that my wins are more important than growing kids as football players/ athletes. We blame the head coaches for everything but when you got kids that go through motions at the lower level because the that’s what they have done for the last 3-4 years before high school then what’s gonna change their mentality. It’s like that every where, when I was hiring workers you see that their mentality makes them think they should given everything without having to earn it and if they don’t get it they shut down. And we seen that all year kids think they had a great practice that they should have the win when in reality if your varsity is practicing against a let’s say a vermilion talent your not gonna beat 3/4 of the bay division.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 23, 2021 13:21:39 GMT -5
Gilbert couldn't do what he did at TC when he was at Mansfield Senior. Did he become a very good coach over night, or were the issues at Senior more than he could overcome. When the right coach got the job at Senior, with essentially the same players, Senior had success. I'm sorry Gilbert didn't go 9-1 or 8-2 every year at Mansfield Senior for you. You are pretending Gilbert was going 0-10 every year at Senior. Gilbert (16-4) at Ashland Crestview Gilbert (36-24) at Mansfield Senior and (8-2) in his last year at Sr. Here's a member of Gilbert's coaching tree, John Livengood From the Sandusky Register March 15, 1991 Some of you act as though coaches are static coaches. Coaches are just like players, they can improve, go in slumps, etc. If a coach gives 100% in years 1-5 then starts giving 70% effort in years 6-10, you'll see a dropoff. Then they might get fired, that might rejuvenate their juices to coach and start giving 100% again at the next school. Don't be sorry. Just the facts. As you well know I said nothing about Gilbert going 0-10 at Mansfield. That was your BS. After Gilbert left Mansfield, their team's record improved. When Gilbert became the coach at TC their record improved. Just the way it often happens. Nothing more.
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Post by ebgames on Oct 23, 2021 15:33:28 GMT -5
What a dumb post. Yeah let’s compare Willard’s head coach to the best CFB coaches to ever coach the game. And yes I saw your failed attempt to also compare historically great high school coaches. Guess what? Not every hire is gonna be the best coach in the history of the game. And that doesn’t mean they need fired. You couldn’t do better. Stop talking. Look another buttercup that thinks crappy coaches should keep their jobs. This is why America is a dumpster fire right now. Keep lowering those expectations. Does Nick Saban lower expectations? Does Urban Meyer lower espectations? 0-10 and 1-9 is now acceptable on a yearly basis? Good call ebgames. Coaches like IQ, Height, athletic ability fit a bell curve. Most coaches are average. Most coaches don't have what it takes to turn a bad program around. Firing most coaches doesn't hurt a program positively or negatively. If a coach has poor talent, then the coach failed at recruiting the kids walking the halls in the school.Great Coaches10-0 with great players & most likely a State Title 10-0 / 9-1 with good players with a shot at a State Title 8-2 / 7-3 with average players 6-4 / 5-5 with below average players 3-7 / 2-8 with poor players Good Coaches10-0 with great players & a shot at a State Title 10-0 / 9-1 with good players 8-2 / 7-3 / 6-4 with average players 5-5 / 4-6 with below average players 3-7 / 2-8 with poor players Average Coaches10-0 / 9-1 with great players - very slim shot at winning a State Title 8-2 / 7-3 with good players 6-4 / 5-5 / 4-6 with average players 3-7 / 2-8 with below average players 1-9 / 0-10 with poor players Below Average Coaches8-2 / 7-3 with great players 6-4 / 5-5 with good players 4-6 / 3-7 with average players 2-8 / 1-9 with below average players 0-10 with poor players Poor Coaches6-4 / 5-5 with great players 4-6 / 3-7 with good players 2-8 / 1-9 with average players 0-10 with below average players 0-10 with poor players Bob Haas coached 22 years at Willard and the worst season he had was 13-8. He made average players into good players and below average players into average players. Ed Nasonti has done the same at Bellevue Steve Gilbert did the same at Tiffin Columbian But let me guess you think Norwalk had no football talent for 33 straight years. They went 33 consecutive seasons without a winning record in football. No football talent in Norwalk for 33 straight years OR poor coaching hires? Stop blaming the kids. Coaches are responsible for motivation. The W's and L's reside on the Coach. Shelby kids, Bellevue kids, Norwalk kids, Willard kids, they are all the same. It's up to the COACH to pull out the best in them. Norwalk didn't go 33 straight year with a lack of football talent, if they hired Ed Nasonti in that time frame they would have won NOL Titles. Stop talking. You’re comparing the Willard’s current coach to Saban, Meyer, Haas, Nasonti, and Gilbert and you sound clueless. Also, I love how Meyer is really turning around Jacksonville in his first year. What a great example you’ve used. I love how Saban had a losing record in the NFL when he didn’t have literally the best talent in the country. I love how Belichick had a horrible record when coaching at Cleveland. How ironic. All of those coaches forgot how to coach for just a small period of time. But then when they had world class talent, they remembered how to coach again. Incredible
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Oct 23, 2021 16:44:14 GMT -5
They say schools don't teach critical thinking. Ebgames may represent that problem.
Do you think every successful season falls out of the sky? You have offered nothing but criticism. Everyone can throw rocks. That's easy. How about analyzing things. What have you offered up anything in these discussions besides your distaste for things that make you say "poo poo?" No one wants a mind like yours in meetings unless they can contemplate solutions to the problems. Provide credible examples of why what you hear isn't what you believe. We all know the skillset for the NFL is different than college football. So Urban can't win a game or two at Jacksonville. Recruiting, dealing with young adults, it's a different skillset. Not every CEO that goes into a different industry succeeds. Most CEOs are very skilled. We are focusing on HS ball. Coaches who build their stomping grounds in the HS level should be compared to such who are in the same industry. Same with college coaches. Different industry, different skills required. We aren't focused on that here. Otherwise, it's meaningless to hear your thoughts. Problems are everywhere. I don't want a voice in the crowd, I want someone with original thoughts.
Tell us how it works. We're waiting.
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Post by ebgames on Oct 23, 2021 19:05:44 GMT -5
They say schools don't teach critical thinking. Ebgames may represent that problem. Do you think every successful season falls out of the sky? You have offered nothing but criticism. Everyone can throw rocks. That's easy. How about analyzing things. What have you offered up anything in these discussions besides your distaste for things that make you say "poo poo?" No one wants a mind like yours in meetings unless they can contemplate solutions to the problems. Provide credible examples of why what you hear isn't what you believe. We all know the skillset for the NFL is different than college football. So Urban can't win a game or two at Jacksonville. Recruiting, dealing with young adults, it's a different skillset. Not every CEO that goes into a different industry succeeds. Most CEOs are very skilled. We are focusing on HS ball. Coaches who build their stomping grounds in the HS level should be compared to such who are in the same industry. Same with college coaches. Different industry, different skills required. We aren't focused on that here. Otherwise, it's meaningless to hear your thoughts. Problems are everywhere. I don't want a voice in the crowd, I want someone with original thoughts. Tell us how it works. We're waiting. Your 2nd screen name is showing. And I don’t have time, nor do I care enough to write a thoughtful response. But I do get tired of people criticizing as if they, or another coach, could do exponentially better with that same talent pool. Which is where my responses stem from.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Oct 23, 2021 19:23:48 GMT -5
My 2nd screen name? Which one is it? I'm glad you can discredit me with a false premise. I assure you, my signature makes it pretty clear I'm the one and only Providence Friars/Shelby Whippets fan on this forum. Not many stand for the Friars after losing to DePaul in the bye round of the Big East tournament last season.
It already kills me to have to defend a Willard die-hard like Vogel. It doesn't come easily. I hate that Willard beat Vermilion, nothing would have brought me more joy than to see that lose streak hit 21 games.
Everyone has time to throw rocks. Not everyone has time to explain their ideas. I get it.
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Post by ebgames on Oct 23, 2021 19:36:01 GMT -5
My 2nd screen name? Which one is it? I'm glad you can discredit me with a false premise. I assure you, my signature makes it pretty clear I'm the one and only Providence Friars/Shelby Whippets fan on this forum. Not many stand for the Friars after losing to DePaul in the bye round of the Big East tournament last season. It already kills me to have to defend a Willard die-hard like Vogel. It doesn't come easily. I hate that Willard beat Vermilion, nothing would have brought me more joy than to see that lose streak hit 21 games. Everyone has time to throw rocks. Not everyone has time to explain their ideas. I get it. What else do I need to explain? Is it not obvious to you that I’m saying success comes more from players than from coaches? Did my multiple examples not make that clear to you? Are you really going to argue this point?
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Oct 23, 2021 21:22:26 GMT -5
You like to skirt that I don't have a 2nd profile name, because that avenue of criticism didn't work for you. Explain that. You didn't like what I said, and you made false pretenses about why I'm not credible. I'll hang that over you. How can I respect you when you lob those things my way? It makes me think you don't have an actual hook to hang your hat on. Come up with actual stuff.
Players mean a lot, but look at Shelby's coach, Rob Mahaney. No evidence yet that he is an all-timer coach that you would see at a Kirtland, a Marion Local, or a college savant like Saban, Meyer, or whoever else we come up with. Yet schools that he takes over at happen to succeed for some reason.
Mahaney took over at Mapleton High School in 2013. Here is Mapleton since 2000:
2000 - 5-5 2001 - 3-7 2002 - 3-7 2003 - 0-10 2004 - 0-10 2005 - 0-10 2006 - 2-8 2007 - 3-7 2008 - 2-8 2009 - 1-9 2010 - 0-10 2011 - 3-7 2012 - 2-8 -------------- 2013 - 6-5 (First winning season since 1995, first year making playoffs since 1991, also Rob Maheney's first season at Mapleton) 2014 - 8-4 (Playoffs) 2015 - 3-7 2016 - 5-5 2017 - 5-5 2018 - 8-4 (Playoffs, Mahaney's last year at Mapleton) ------------- 2019 - 1-9 2020 - 5-5 2021 - 3-7
At Shelby:
2019 - 8-4 (Halftime lead of 21-7 over the eventual state champs, Clyde, which we admittedly blew) 2020 - 9-1 (Lost in Regional Finals to the eventual state champs, Van Wert) 2021 - 8-2
No kidding players matter. Shelby had good players when Mahaney stepped in, but I bet you could replace Mahaney with any other MOAC coach over his years at Shelby and they would have performed worse 70-80% of the time. Does Shelby go 25-7 with a 4-2 playoff record from 2019-2021 with Ontario's head coach? How about Galion's? What about Nasonti? I think Nasonti could draft up some good ideas with Owen Fisher and Marshall Shepherd. Why don't we feel the same way about River Valley's head coach? How on earth on does it not matter to have a competent decision-maker at the charge for a program? As Vogel said, a bad team is turned into a moderate/average team under a smart coach. Sometimes coaches lose their touch, but the good ones who aren't tempted by greener pastures and administration jobs tend to hold their value very clearly.
Your examples are in the NFL. There are 32 teams in the NFL. Superbly cherry-picked. I have, in this thread alone, offered Lucas, Kirtland, and now Mapleton/Shelby under a coach who drew those schools to an enviable amount of success. Schools that were, to some extent, utterly laughable before the right play-caller stepped in. No one is accusing Scott Spitler nor Rob Mahaney of being the next HOFer coach at this juncture. It already takes a 0.01% coach to qualify to the NFL, let alone succeed. At the high school level with a lot more wiggle room between 700+ schools in Ohio, it is much easier to cut your teeth and find your worth. The top percentile in any genre will be whimsical to different factors, let alone the NFL when your opponent may have the top fraction of talent possible at the level. Paul Brown, Parcells, and Bellichick can only do so much to stop Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Aaron Rodgers if they don't have that fractional talent. In high school, I doubt Bellevue is often facing future NFL pedigree. In fact, Bellevue doesn't have much NFL pedigree. No one does in this area outside of that once-a-generation kid. When you get what you get, expertise can make one hillbilly kid more competent than the hillbilly kid from the next town who hasn't had his routes, schemes, and psyche masterfully drilled into his head.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Oct 23, 2021 21:30:37 GMT -5
I can't wait to see who ebgames thinks my 2nd profile is that I'm posting on here with. It must be so obvious I have one. Ebgames must have reams of evidence for it. What a childish move to protect one's own opinion on a high school sports forum. If I cared about winning, I would have attended Villanova or Duke. Not Providence.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Oct 23, 2021 21:59:15 GMT -5
They say schools don't teach critical thinking. Ebgames may represent that problem. Do you think every successful season falls out of the sky? You have offered nothing but criticism. Everyone can throw rocks. That's easy. How about analyzing things. What have you offered up anything in these discussions besides your distaste for things that make you say "poo poo?" No one wants a mind like yours in meetings unless they can contemplate solutions to the problems. Provide credible examples of why what you hear isn't what you believe. We all know the skillset for the NFL is different than college football. So Urban can't win a game or two at Jacksonville. Recruiting, dealing with young adults, it's a different skillset. Not every CEO that goes into a different industry succeeds. Most CEOs are very skilled. We are focusing on HS ball. Coaches who build their stomping grounds in the HS level should be compared to such who are in the same industry. Same with college coaches. Different industry, different skills required. We aren't focused on that here. Otherwise, it's meaningless to hear your thoughts. Problems are everywhere. I don't want a voice in the crowd, I want someone with original thoughts. Tell us how it works. We're waiting. Your 2nd screen name is showing. And I don’t have time, nor do I care enough to write a thoughtful response. But I do get tired of people criticizing as if they, or another coach, could do exponentially better with that same talent pool. Which is where my responses stem from. THAT post is more ignorant than all the others
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A no.1
All Conference
Posts: 149
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Post by A no.1 on Oct 23, 2021 22:43:19 GMT -5
I can't wait to see who ebgames thinks my 2nd profile is that I'm posting on here with. It must be so obvious I have one. Ebgames must have reams of evidence for it. What a childish move to protect one's own opinion on a high school sports forum. If I cared about winning, I would have attended Villanova or Duke. Not Providence. I believe he thinks you and Vogel are the same.
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Post by ebgames on Oct 23, 2021 23:17:25 GMT -5
You like to skirt that I don't have a 2nd profile name, because that avenue of criticism didn't work for you. Explain that. You didn't like what I said, and you made false pretenses about why I'm not credible. I'll hang that over you. How can I respect you when you lob those things my way? It makes me think you don't have an actual hook to hang your hat on. Come up with actual stuff. Players mean a lot, but look at Shelby's coach, Rob Mahaney. No evidence yet that he is an all-timer coach that you would see at a Kirtland, a Marion Local, or a college savant like Saban, Meyer, or whoever else we come up with. Yet schools that he takes over at happen to succeed for some reason. Mahaney took over at Mapleton High School in 2013. Here is Mapleton since 2000: 2000 - 5-5 2001 - 3-7 2002 - 3-7 2003 - 0-10 2004 - 0-10 2005 - 0-10 2006 - 2-8 2007 - 3-7 2008 - 2-8 2009 - 1-9 2010 - 0-10 2011 - 3-7 2012 - 2-8 -------------- 2013 - 6-5 (First winning season since 1995, first year making playoffs since 1991, also Rob Maheney's first season at Mapleton) 2014 - 8-4 (Playoffs) 2015 - 3-7 2016 - 5-5 2017 - 5-5 2018 - 8-4 (Playoffs, Mahaney's last year at Mapleton) ------------- 2019 - 1-9 2020 - 5-5 2021 - 3-7 At Shelby: 2019 - 8-4 (Halftime lead of 21-7 over the eventual state champs, Clyde, which we admittedly blew) 2020 - 9-1 (Lost in Regional Finals to the eventual state champs, Van Wert) 2021 - 8-2 No kidding players matter. Shelby had good players when Mahaney stepped in, but I bet you could replace Mahaney with any other MOAC coach over his years at Shelby and they would have performed worse 70-80% of the time. Does Shelby go 25-7 with a 4-2 playoff record from 2019-2021 with Ontario's head coach? How about Galion's? What about Nasonti? I think Nasonti could draft up some good ideas with Owen Fisher and Marshall Shepherd. Why don't we feel the same way about River Valley's head coach? How on earth on does it not matter to have a competent decision-maker at the charge for a program? As Vogel said, a bad team is turned into a moderate/average team under a smart coach. Sometimes coaches lose their touch, but the good ones who aren't tempted by greener pastures and administration jobs tend to hold their value very clearly. Your examples are in the NFL. There are 32 teams in the NFL. Superbly cherry-picked. I have, in this thread alone, offered Lucas, Kirtland, and now Mapleton/Shelby under a coach who drew those schools to an enviable amount of success. Schools that were, to some extent, utterly laughable before the right play-caller stepped in. No one is accusing Scott Spitler nor Rob Mahaney of being the next HOFer coach at this juncture. It already takes a 0.01% coach to qualify to the NFL, let alone succeed. At the high school level with a lot more wiggle room between 700+ schools in Ohio, it is much easier to cut your teeth and find your worth. The top percentile in any genre will be whimsical to different factors, let alone the NFL when your opponent may have the top fraction of talent possible at the level. Paul Brown, Parcells, and Bellichick can only do so much to stop Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Aaron Rodgers if they don't have that fractional talent. In high school, I doubt Bellevue is often facing future NFL pedigree. In fact, Bellevue doesn't have much NFL pedigree. No one does in this area outside of that once-a-generation kid. When you get what you get, expertise can make one hillbilly kid more competent than the hillbilly kid from the next town who hasn't had his routes, schemes, and psyche masterfully drilled into his head. Your 2nd screen name is still showing. Don’t care how long you’ve been at it. It’s still showing. You have way too much time. I could hardly get through your long-a** boring post. Again I’ll say to YOU - stop talking.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Oct 24, 2021 0:09:22 GMT -5
I can't wait to see who ebgames thinks my 2nd profile is that I'm posting on here with. It must be so obvious I have one. Ebgames must have reams of evidence for it. What a childish move to protect one's own opinion on a high school sports forum. If I cared about winning, I would have attended Villanova or Duke. Not Providence. I believe he thinks you and Vogel are the same. I'm gathering that myself. To be fair, Vogel sets a standard on here for aesthetically pleasing data presentation. Tied for 1st with BellevueBuckeye, all things considered. Imitation is flattery, I'll admit it.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Oct 24, 2021 0:35:17 GMT -5
You like to skirt that I don't have a 2nd profile name, because that avenue of criticism didn't work for you. Explain that. You didn't like what I said, and you made false pretenses about why I'm not credible. I'll hang that over you. How can I respect you when you lob those things my way? It makes me think you don't have an actual hook to hang your hat on. Come up with actual stuff. Players mean a lot, but look at Shelby's coach, Rob Mahaney. No evidence yet that he is an all-timer coach that you would see at a Kirtland, a Marion Local, or a college savant like Saban, Meyer, or whoever else we come up with. Yet schools that he takes over at happen to succeed for some reason. Mahaney took over at Mapleton High School in 2013. Here is Mapleton since 2000: 2000 - 5-5 2001 - 3-7 2002 - 3-7 2003 - 0-10 2004 - 0-10 2005 - 0-10 2006 - 2-8 2007 - 3-7 2008 - 2-8 2009 - 1-9 2010 - 0-10 2011 - 3-7 2012 - 2-8 -------------- 2013 - 6-5 (First winning season since 1995, first year making playoffs since 1991, also Rob Maheney's first season at Mapleton) 2014 - 8-4 (Playoffs) 2015 - 3-7 2016 - 5-5 2017 - 5-5 2018 - 8-4 (Playoffs, Mahaney's last year at Mapleton) ------------- 2019 - 1-9 2020 - 5-5 2021 - 3-7 At Shelby: 2019 - 8-4 (Halftime lead of 21-7 over the eventual state champs, Clyde, which we admittedly blew) 2020 - 9-1 (Lost in Regional Finals to the eventual state champs, Van Wert) 2021 - 8-2 No kidding players matter. Shelby had good players when Mahaney stepped in, but I bet you could replace Mahaney with any other MOAC coach over his years at Shelby and they would have performed worse 70-80% of the time. Does Shelby go 25-7 with a 4-2 playoff record from 2019-2021 with Ontario's head coach? How about Galion's? What about Nasonti? I think Nasonti could draft up some good ideas with Owen Fisher and Marshall Shepherd. Why don't we feel the same way about River Valley's head coach? How on earth on does it not matter to have a competent decision-maker at the charge for a program? As Vogel said, a bad team is turned into a moderate/average team under a smart coach. Sometimes coaches lose their touch, but the good ones who aren't tempted by greener pastures and administration jobs tend to hold their value very clearly. Your examples are in the NFL. There are 32 teams in the NFL. Superbly cherry-picked. I have, in this thread alone, offered Lucas, Kirtland, and now Mapleton/Shelby under a coach who drew those schools to an enviable amount of success. Schools that were, to some extent, utterly laughable before the right play-caller stepped in. No one is accusing Scott Spitler nor Rob Mahaney of being the next HOFer coach at this juncture. It already takes a 0.01% coach to qualify to the NFL, let alone succeed. At the high school level with a lot more wiggle room between 700+ schools in Ohio, it is much easier to cut your teeth and find your worth. The top percentile in any genre will be whimsical to different factors, let alone the NFL when your opponent may have the top fraction of talent possible at the level. Paul Brown, Parcells, and Bellichick can only do so much to stop Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Aaron Rodgers if they don't have that fractional talent. In high school, I doubt Bellevue is often facing future NFL pedigree. In fact, Bellevue doesn't have much NFL pedigree. No one does in this area outside of that once-a-generation kid. When you get what you get, expertise can make one hillbilly kid more competent than the hillbilly kid from the next town who hasn't had his routes, schemes, and psyche masterfully drilled into his head. Your 2nd screen name is still showing. Don’t care how long you’ve been at it. It’s still showing. You have way too much time. I could hardly get through your long-a** boring post. Again I’ll say to YOU - stop talking. You were the one who made it personal by accusing me of being from Willard. Based on my high school diploma, that's high treason.
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Post by fanofthegame on Oct 24, 2021 20:00:13 GMT -5
I know shelbyrr11 personally.
Vogel is back from the dead from the old site and very Willard.
It would surprise me if the former didn’t break out in hives after being accused of being the later.
It would be idiotic to deny talent waxes and wanes. There is a guy playing at Virginia right now that I could have won high school football games coaching. But coaching is obviously a bigger factor. Are certain schools participating in breeding programs? Are they handing out steroids and growth hormones? Everyone has similar kids walking the halls. Some have more to choose from and that’s why we have divisions.
It’s irrelevant to compare college and pro coaches to high school because they get their players differently. High school coaches get what they get. No recruiting, drafting, trading.
I believe at the lower levels mindset is way more important than talent and at higher levels talent is way more important than mindset. Coaches determine a team’s mindset. They set the expectations and the expectation needs to be winning. That’s why Bellevue wins consistently. That’s why Clyde wins consistently. That why Norwalk loses consistently. They all believe that is their role to play. It’s a coach’s job to change that mentality.
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dump
All Conference
Onion Poster
Posts: 428
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Post by dump on Oct 24, 2021 20:15:30 GMT -5
The Willard crowd is something else
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Post by GHS 1999 on Oct 24, 2021 21:22:42 GMT -5
Wasn't 2009 Galion being recipients of some really good transfers from Columbus area? Galion seemed to always have transfers coming in as long as Hawkins was coaching there. It wasn’t just 2009.
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Post by ebgames on Oct 24, 2021 22:06:36 GMT -5
I know shelbyrr11 personally. Vogel is back from the dead from the old site and very Willard. It would surprise me if the former didn’t break out in hives after being accused of being the later. It would be idiotic to deny talent waxes and wanes. There is a guy playing at Virginia right now that I could have won high school football games coaching. But coaching is obviously a bigger factor. Are certain schools participating in breeding programs? Are they handing out steroids and growth hormones? Everyone has similar kids walking the halls. Some have more to choose from and that’s why we have divisions. It’s irrelevant to compare college and pro coaches to high school because they get their players differently. High school coaches get what they get. No recruiting, drafting, trading. I believe at the lower levels mindset is way more important than talent and at higher levels talent is way more important than mindset. Coaches determine a team’s mindset. They set the expectations and the expectation needs to be winning. That’s why Bellevue wins consistently. That’s why Clyde wins consistently. That why Norwalk loses consistently. They all believe that is their role to play. It’s a coach’s job to change that mentality. Your 3rd screen name is showing. Also - “coaching is obviously a bigger factor”?? How so? Put the 5 best players in the NBA on the same team, with the worst coach and guess what? They win the title. Flip it. Put the 5 worst players in the NBA on the same team with the best coach and guess what? They may not win a single game. Defintely the worst record. So explain how coaching means more. It’s about jimmy’s and Joe’s. Not X’s and O’s and it’s so obvious.
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Post by sbclives on Oct 24, 2021 22:51:31 GMT -5
I think the MAC is a great example of kids buying into a system. You think those tiny little schools are loaded up every year with state championship talent? I highly doubt it. Those kids have long bought into a system that expects to win and have the coaching to get them there. To have that kind of culture is hard to beat and hard to stop. That league every year from top to bottom is great cause everyone has long bought in and it never stopped. Around here the closest to that is Bellevue, Clyde and St. Paul. At those three schools that winning mentality is always there and the support from the community is always there.
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Post by fanofthegame on Oct 25, 2021 4:19:21 GMT -5
I know shelbyrr11 personally. Vogel is back from the dead from the old site and very Willard. It would surprise me if the former didn’t break out in hives after being accused of being the later. It would be idiotic to deny talent waxes and wanes. There is a guy playing at Virginia right now that I could have won high school football games coaching. But coaching is obviously a bigger factor. Are certain schools participating in breeding programs? Are they handing out steroids and growth hormones? Everyone has similar kids walking the halls. Some have more to choose from and that’s why we have divisions. It’s irrelevant to compare college and pro coaches to high school because they get their players differently. High school coaches get what they get. No recruiting, drafting, trading. I believe at the lower levels mindset is way more important than talent and at higher levels talent is way more important than mindset. Coaches determine a team’s mindset. They set the expectations and the expectation needs to be winning. That’s why Bellevue wins consistently. That’s why Clyde wins consistently. That why Norwalk loses consistently. They all believe that is their role to play. It’s a coach’s job to change that mentality. Your 3rd screen name is showing. Also - “coaching is obviously a bigger factor”?? How so? Put the 5 best players in the NBA on the same team, with the worst coach and guess what? They win the title. Flip it. Put the 5 worst players in the NBA on the same team with the best coach and guess what? They may not win a single game. Defintely the worst record. So explain how coaching means more. It’s about jimmy’s and Joe’s. Not X’s and O’s and it’s so obvious. Tell me what is so special about the kids in Bellevue that is lacking in the kids in Willard? Does Bellevue have a secret Hitler-like breeding program? Only certain people can marry and have kids. The towns are 15-20 minutes apart. They are likely related to each other at times. Willard clearly has athletic kids. They’ve won a few basketball games along the way. There are overlapping skill sets. Probably wasting our time debating this issue with you. You’ve run out of legitimate comebacks when you’re just accusing us all of being the same person.
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