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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 14:17:31 GMT -5
Fair enough. Everything is relative, of course. Defiance doesn't know a world where they can have several 40 minute drives to get to league opponents. BV now has to deal with bigger drives. It can be jarring. No one in Shelby enjoyed switching a shorter drive in Bucyrus with Fostoria, let alone swapping several shorter drives for now longer ones. However, I wouldn't want BV to do anything irrational for the sake of a shorter drive. Hell, I'd wait a year and see the type of attendance boost that a Clear Fork and Shelby brings before getting too skittish. As for the talks of Willard and Upper coming, I am under the impression that the MOAC is going to stand pat with an 8 team league. Upper likes where they are at, and Willard just caused a seismic shift in conference alignments to get where they are at. I was merely alluding that if BV were to ever leave the MOAC, then Upper or Willard may feel differently about joining the MOAC. I certainly don't think it would be worthwhile to pull them in now. I can tolerate a drive to BV if it means I get a drive to Galion, Ontario, and Clear Fork. As for the mileage map, I don't think you messed up. I am using MINUTES. You must've used MILES. I prefer minutes since mileage can be deceiving, it doesn't take many drives to Clear Fork to realize that! I edited my post to make that more apparent for others. Possibly an attendance decline is coming. You are not the first to mention those 2 schools. I can see that being the mess up I had. Minutes can definitely change depending on weather, driver and traffic. Most use mileage as it will not change even if traffic stops. To be honest I always figure I can make the trip in less time from what the map says. |
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Post by usa70pp on Aug 23, 2017 14:29:37 GMT -5
Pleasant used to play Clear Fork as their OOC game from 2000 to 2006. I think Carroll's brother was the coach there at the time and that may have been the reason. And yes, that drive over there was a bear. I was early 60s then, but as the years advanced I wouldn't make that drive now. Having said that, should Pleasant make state at Canton I would make that drive, but would spend the night at a Holiday Inn. (To get smarter, don't you know)
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Post by baseballdad on Aug 23, 2017 15:22:19 GMT -5
Another thing to keep in mind regarding BV is the sheer size of our district. When you're talking drive times, it can be a wide range from one side of the district to another. For instance, I live in the NE corner of the district so my drive to Clear Fork this year is about 40 minutes. Not something I'm looking forward to but not hateful either. My friends who live in the SW corner of our district though, which is the extreme SW corner of Delaware County, have a 30-40 minute drive to get to my house (maybe longer depending on Delaware traffic), so their drive to Clear Fork will most likely be closer to 1:30. Not saying this is factoring in any possible thinking by BV administration but it is a consideration. Our land area presents us challenges that a lot of other districts don't face.
Personally I would hate to see BV leave the MOAC. I know the previous AD wanted to push us towards the OCC, but I just don't see BV competing at that level at the moment. That may change 10-15 years down the line. BV will not become Olentangy for certain, but the district is growing in population, and development in Delaware County is spreading quickly. If 15 years from BV has outgrown the MOAC then they may need to move, but there is no sense in getting beat up in the meantime.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 15:23:25 GMT -5
Dave Carroll was not at Clear Fork until about 2008 or 2009. There are some in the Clear Fork area that are making the same statements. As declining ticket sales have become a normal for everyone, it will be interesting to hear how the trips to Marion, Union and Delaware Counties are attended.
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Post by shelbyrr11 on Aug 23, 2017 15:27:18 GMT -5
Fair enough. Everything is relative, of course. Defiance doesn't know a world where they can have several 40 minute drives to get to league opponents. BV now has to deal with bigger drives. It can be jarring. No one in Shelby enjoyed switching a shorter drive in Bucyrus with Fostoria, let alone swapping several shorter drives for now longer ones. However, I wouldn't want BV to do anything irrational for the sake of a shorter drive. Hell, I'd wait a year and see the type of attendance boost that a Clear Fork and Shelby brings before getting too skittish. As for the talks of Willard and Upper coming, I am under the impression that the MOAC is going to stand pat with an 8 team league. Upper likes where they are at, and Willard just caused a seismic shift in conference alignments to get where they are at. I was merely alluding that if BV were to ever leave the MOAC, then Upper or Willard may feel differently about joining the MOAC. I certainly don't think it would be worthwhile to pull them in now. I can tolerate a drive to BV if it means I get a drive to Galion, Ontario, and Clear Fork. As for the mileage map, I don't think you messed up. I am using MINUTES. You must've used MILES. I prefer minutes since mileage can be deceiving, it doesn't take many drives to Clear Fork to realize that! I edited my post to make that more apparent for others. Possibly an attendance decline is coming. You are not the first to mention those 2 schools. I can see that being the mess up I had. Minutes can definitely change depending on weather, driver and traffic. Most use mileage as it will not change even if traffic stops. To be honest I always figure I can make the trip in less time from what the map says. Definitely an attendance decline, but you'll see that for most rural NW Ohio schools I could imagine. Even so, I bet the gates that Shelby and Clear Fork provide in the near future won't be such a considerable step down from some of BV's former league opponents. I am not the first to mention Upper and Willard, but I doubt the MOAC will stand for an expansion. Galion and Ontario certainly know the fall-out of needlessly going to 10 schools from their NCC experiment. Shelby saw the NCC explode in their backyard. BV would likely vote down anything adding anything north of Marion into the league. That's 4 out of 8 votes going against expansion if those schools behave how I'd expect them to. In the event that BV were to leave, then I think it would be feasible to get the support needed to lobby for Upper or Willard to make the MOAC maintain 8 schools in their membership. Miles, minutes, either one can be manipulated. It is semantics to me which one is truly better. Both are sufficient at measuring travel. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 15:39:49 GMT -5
I was referring to the decline due to the distance and lack of rivalry, not the millennial decline everyone is seeing. Some games should still bring good gates.
Upper and Willard are just talks and neither have any interest in joining at this time, from what I hear, but with them being mentioned and the recent shift in schools being added you can understand the concerns BV may have. Even though it is unlikely.
Both are sufficient but one is more constant. It is a fact that Shelby High School to Ontario high school is less than 10 miles but on a given day in January that drive can take twice as long as it does tonight.
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Post by usa70pp on Aug 23, 2017 16:20:33 GMT -5
Dave Carroll was not at Clear Fork until about 2008 or 2009. There are some in the Clear Fork area that are making the same statements. As declining ticket sales have become a normal for everyone, it will be interesting to hear how the trips to Marion, Union and Delaware Counties are attended. Not Dave, his brother. Yes Dave went to Clear Fork after his son graduated from Pleasant. Don't know how long the two brothers coached together at Clear Fork. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 16:44:50 GMT -5
Mike Carroll I believe is the one who coached at Pleasant. Dave coached at Urbana before coming to Clear Fork.
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Post by usa70pp on Aug 23, 2017 16:57:51 GMT -5
Mike Carroll I believe is the one who coached at Pleasant. Dave coached at Urbana before coming to Clear Fork. You're right. One of the sites I checked on seems to have them reversed as well. |
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Post by moacmama on Aug 23, 2017 20:56:19 GMT -5
Another thing to keep in mind regarding BV is the sheer size of our district. When you're talking drive times, it can be a wide range from one side of the district to another. For instance, I live in the NE corner of the district so my drive to Clear Fork this year is about 40 minutes. Not something I'm looking forward to but not hateful either. My friends who live in the SW corner of our district though, which is the extreme SW corner of Delaware County, have a 30-40 minute drive to get to my house (maybe longer depending on Delaware traffic), so their drive to Clear Fork will most likely be closer to 1:30. Not saying this is factoring in any possible thinking by BV administration but it is a consideration. Our land area presents us challenges that a lot of other districts don't face. Personally I would hate to see BV leave the MOAC. I know the previous AD wanted to push us towards the OCC, but I just don't see BV competing at that level at the moment. That may change 10-15 years down the line. BV will not become Olentangy for certain, but the district is growing in population, and development in Delaware County is spreading quickly. If 15 years from BV has outgrown the MOAC then they may need to move, but there is no sense in getting beat up in the meantime. These are all great points and many similar things were taken into consideration when NU was deciding what to do. Our district is so large, some folks can be in Delaware in 15 minutes....and on the other side of the district, you can be in Bellefontaine in 20 minutes. The rumor is BW and Hayes want out of the OCC so it will be interesting to see where all the schools end up five years from now. MOAC keeps moving north. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 22:00:39 GMT -5
moacmama, Those rumors are spreading to many parts. If BW and Hayes venture out. Which could be helped by the addition of another Olentangy school. I could see Mt Vernon taking a look at what is offered. Who knows, there has been some recent movement in the Licking County League so if they could attract a Johnstwon, Utica and Northridge, now you have a good group of schools all within about 40 miles or less.
Buckeye Valley
Johnstown
Utica
Northridge
Mt Vernon
Hayes
Big Walnut
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Post by moacmama on Aug 24, 2017 2:29:07 GMT -5
Dude, we've also heard Marysville as well, so add them to your list.
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Post by gatesofbabylon25 on Aug 24, 2017 12:16:12 GMT -5
Gates, no one is a fan of the hour long drives. Sometimes though, it is a necessary evil. Is the OCC really the best way out? Yes, this is a driving time post. Buckle up, everybody. Here are my rules: Google Maps, high school to high school, one-way trip, measured in MINUTES. This is my preferred way of measuring drives. I know Google Maps can have these times change based on when you input the info into the website, but I think it is more reflective of the drive. This is also NOT under wintery conditions, which changes everything. Defiance High School joined the Western Buckeye League in 1973. I am using this as a litmus test for the purposes of having a comparable "quit 'yer whinin', millenial" example. The WBL is a ten team league with only one other member joining since Defiance, which was Lima Shawnee in 1981. Five members of this league have been in the WBL since the 40s. Fairly stable league. In football, Defiance is Division 3. The WBL, in football terms, have 5 D3 schools, 4 D4 schools, and 1 D5 school (Ottawa-Glandorf, who doesn't seem to have an issue with winning). Defiance, per Google Maps, has an average drive time of 59 minutes and 40 seconds. I added the seconds because it was THAT close to being an hour, haha. Defiance to... Kenton 81 minutes Celina 76 St. Marys Memorial 69 Wapakoneta 68 Shawnee 61 Van Wert 52 Lima Bath 51 Elida 50 Ottawa-Glandorf 29 To be fair and transparent, the WBL only schedules a single-round robin for basketball. I do not know how they handle other sports. They also have only one other viable option for their league placement, which would be the Northwest Ohio Athletic League. Not that the NWOAL would ever accept them in today's enrollment situation, as they are comprised of 8 schools consisting of 2 D4s, 3 D5s, and 3 D6s. What about today's MOAC? Buckeye Valley to... Shelby 67 minutes Clear Fork 59 Ontario 56 Galion 46 River Valley 24 Marion Harding 21 Pleasant 20 That is an average drive of about 42 minutes. Let's assume the OCC Capital Division does decide to take in Buckeye Valley (not likely, from what I'm reading on here). Westerville South 38 minutes Westerville North 38 Westerville Central 36 Olentangy Orange 25 Olentangy Liberty 23 Olentangy 19 That's an average drive of about 30 minutes. If we throw in traffic, I wouldn't call it crazy to say it would take about 35 minutes on average. Also, BV's enrollment is more than doubled by every school, some close to triple. Woof. Let's assume the OCC Cardinal Division is the place to go. Hilliard Bradley 49 minutes Hilliard Darby 42 Worthington Kilbourne 33 Thomas Worthington 32 Dublin Jerome 31 Dublin Scioto 30 Hayes 10 That is an average of 32 minutes, plus another 5 minutes to account for traffic. 37 minutes. BV isn't double in enrollment by ALL of these schools, but it is close. Because I am a Shelby fan, here is Shelby in the most recent rendition of an 8-team NOL: Fostoria 74 minutes Tiffin 57 Bellevue 53 Upper Sandusky 43 Norwalk 38 Willard 26 Galion 24 Average drive of 45 minutes, greater than BV's current arrangement in the MOAC. |
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Post by gatesofbabylon25 on Aug 24, 2017 12:17:10 GMT -5
If it takes you 10 minutes to get from BV to hayes you are riding a bicycle.
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Post by gatesofbabylon25 on Aug 24, 2017 12:30:50 GMT -5
Another thing to keep in mind regarding BV is the sheer size of our district. When you're talking drive times, it can be a wide range from one side of the district to another. For instance, I live in the NE corner of the district so my drive to Clear Fork this year is about 40 minutes. Not something I'm looking forward to but not hateful either. My friends who live in the SW corner of our district though, which is the extreme SW corner of Delaware County, have a 30-40 minute drive to get to my house (maybe longer depending on Delaware traffic), so their drive to Clear Fork will most likely be closer to 1:30. Not saying this is factoring in any possible thinking by BV administration but it is a consideration. Our land area presents us challenges that a lot of other districts don't face. Personally I would hate to see BV leave the MOAC. I know the previous AD wanted to push us towards the OCC, but I just don't see BV competing at that level at the moment. That may change 10-15 years down the line. BV will not become Olentangy for certain, but the district is growing in population, and development in Delaware County is spreading quickly. If 15 years from BV has outgrown the MOAC then they may need to move, but there is no sense in getting beat up in the meantime. BD. When we were in the CBL, we competed in every sport except football except 1-2 yrs. we were the small school then also. Adding these teams to the MOAC, it's not the MOAC anymore. BV,the farm school,was just one of about 3-4 back in the 80s when we played Tangy,BW,Marysville. It was fun playing better competition like Dublin with workman and Merker. Bexley won State in BB with Willard and gatterdam. Academy was good, and think West Jeff won a football state. I see football as only sport BV wouldn't compete with inOCC. |
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Aug 24, 2017 16:50:29 GMT -5
I was referring to the decline due to the distance and lack of rivalry, not the millennial decline everyone is seeing. Some games should still bring good gates. Upper and Willard are just talks and neither have any interest in joining at this time, from what I hear, but with them being mentioned and the recent shift in schools being added you can understand the concerns BV may have. Even though it is unlikely. Both are sufficient but one is more constant. It is a fact that Shelby High School to Ontario high school is less than 10 miles but on a given day in January that drive can take twice as long as it does tonight. That can be said for any 2 schools anywhere in Ohio |
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Aug 24, 2017 16:54:48 GMT -5
Those adding 5 minutes for travel time playing Columbus schools are being VERY generous. I know dozens of people that live in Richland County and work in Columbus. Its not unusual for them to sit and/or crawl along in traffic for 30 minutes.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Aug 24, 2017 16:59:28 GMT -5
moacmama, Those rumors are spreading to many parts. If BW and Hayes venture out. Which could be helped by the addition of another Olentangy school. I could see Mt Vernon taking a look at what is offered. Who knows, there has been some recent movement in the Licking County League so if they could attract a Johnstwon, Utica and Northridge, now you have a good group of schools all within about 40 miles or less. Buckeye Valley Johnstown Utica Northridge Mt Vernon Hayes Big Walnut SO, your saying Mt.Vernon is already looking for another league? (I knew they would). That would be the death knell for the Ohio Cardinal Conference, already at 7. Lexington might then be interested in the MOAC |
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Post by cowtown on Aug 25, 2017 0:55:59 GMT -5
Dude that league you propose while looking good map wise will never happen. Utica and Nothridge are WAY to small to join any league with Mt.Vernon, Big Walnut, Delaware . It would be like Buckeye Central joining a league that has Mansfield Senior in it . Yes Delaware / Big Walnut are not happy in the OCC and the leaders of these schools have complained to the OCC on how the league is divided up . The OCC (with 30 some schools in the league) does not care about 2 long time rivals being split up and never playing each other .
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2017 5:39:28 GMT -5
It was just talk over possible futures for leagues based on location. But, how big is Watkins Memorial or Granville? Last I checked every team only puts 11 on the football field at a time. I never have been one to focus on the kids walking the hallways of the school. To me it's about what you put on the field. Now in saying that I would not match up Buckeye Central with St. Ed. But Utica to Mt Vernon is not the same in my eyes. Again, the post was just for fun and most of those schools are happy with their spots as far as I know of.
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Post by usa70pp on Aug 25, 2017 5:50:29 GMT -5
While it is true that only 11 players are put on the field, how about we only allow the same number of substitute players on each sideline? That would be more equitable.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2017 6:00:06 GMT -5
I understand the thought but I always told my son, who played football against bigger schools, don't ever be concerned with a guy standing on the sideline. He is there for a reason.
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Post by galion on Aug 25, 2017 10:36:33 GMT -5
Well playoff points are determined by who you play and size does matter.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2017 11:03:15 GMT -5
My point was a high school of 200 boys should not rule out playing a high school of 500 boys if they are only 10 miles apart. When I was in school we played bigger teams all the time in our area.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Aug 25, 2017 17:08:04 GMT -5
Lexington was the biggest school in the JAC. As happens today, that conference ended when the 4 smallest schools ran away.
Ontario has never avoided playing bigger Lex over the years. Even though Lex is now shrinking and Ontario is growing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2017 8:19:31 GMT -5
Plus, by the time BV makes a move who knows what the enrollments will be. Look at Mansfield Sr, they are now D3 in football and may be for a while.
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Post by gatesofbabylon25 on Aug 26, 2017 12:09:05 GMT -5
My point was a high school of 200 boys should not rule out playing a high school of 500 boys if they are only 10 miles apart. When I was in school we played bigger teams all the time in our area. BV was in CBL for yrs and almost all were bigger and it was a competitive league. Miss playing dublin,Academy, grandview, west jeff, tangy and BW |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2017 12:20:55 GMT -5
I am the same way. Although enrollment is a factor I do not believe it should decide were a school ends.
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Aug 26, 2017 13:05:01 GMT -5
My point was a high school of 200 boys should not rule out playing a high school of 500 boys if they are only 10 miles apart. When I was in school we played bigger teams all the time in our area. BV was in CBL for yrs and almost all were bigger and it was a competitive league. Miss playing dublin,Academy, grandview, west jeff, tangy and BW That was FORTY to TWENTY-SEVEN years ago!! It is a completely different world around Columbus these days. I doubt very much it would be any where near as "competitive" for BV against Big Walnut, Marysville, New Albany schools and Dublin schools now. As THOSE were the schools in the Division with BV from 77-90 when BV left, one year before the CBL ended. |
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Post by Willard Fillmore on Aug 26, 2017 13:15:21 GMT -5
Plus, by the time BV makes a move who knows what the enrollments will be. Look at Mansfield Sr, they are now D3 in football and may be for a while. According to a population expert, by the year 2050, Columbus will have a population of 2 Million. Avoid Columbus like the plague. |
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